FOIA response from the Australian Department of Defence re questions from Senator Whish-Wilson

Senate Estimates Committee hearings

At the 27 October 2021 Australian Senate Estimates Committee hearings, Tasmanian Senator Peter Whish-Wilson posed several questions concerning Unidentified Aerial Phenomena (UAP), to Chief of Air Force, Air Marshal Mel Hupfield. 

https://www.airforce.gov.au/our-people/our-leaders/chief-air-force

I posted a copy of the transcript of these discussions in a previous blog post. During the hearings, Senator Whish-Wilson indicated that he would pose further questions to the Australian Department of Defence (DOD) about UAP. 

The next day, in a radio interview with host Brian Carlton, of Triple M Hobart, the Senator revealed that he had a friend, who, over 20 years ago was on a military exercise on a ship. The ship was followed by a metallic "tic-tac." It was a recent meerting with this friend which caused the Senator to ask questions at the Senate Estimates Committee hearings.

Department of Defence FOIA request

On 27 January 2022, I submitted a request under the Freedom of Information Act to the Australian Department of Defence, as follows:

"I wish to obtain a copy of any correspondence, e.g. letters and/or emails, between Senator Whish-Wilson and the Department of Defence, including Air Marshall Hupfeld or his office, between 27 October 2021 and 27 January 2022, regarding Unidentified Aerial Phenomena."

The request was promptly acknowledged by the DOD on 28 January 2022. On 22 February 2022, I received a response to my request. This was a two page document headed "Defence Portfolio. Senate Estimates Question. (Question No. 90.)" It contained a series of questions, from the Senator, dated 5 November 2021; and responses from the Department.

As per the usual DOD FOIA process, my FOIA request and the Department's response will shortly be published  on the DOD's FOIA website, thus making it available to a wider audience.

Questions and answers

Below, I extract the questions and answers, and provide relevant comment.

Q1. Has the Department of Defence had the opportunity to formally review the report completed by the US Office of the Director of National Intelligence titled 'Preliminary Assessment: Unidentified Aerial Phenomena' published in June 2021?

A1. The Department of Defence has not formally reviewed the report.

Comment: At the televised hearings, Senator Whish-Wilson asked Air Marshal Hupfeld if he was aware of the report. The Air Marshal replied "I'm not formally aware of the report. I think there was an article in the newspapers and commentary about that at some stage. But I'm not quite sure of the content of the report."

Q2. What guidance, if any, has the Department sought on the publication of the US report and the implications for Australian aerospace?

A2. The Department of Defence has not sought guidance on the publication.

Q3. Is the 'Unusual Aerial Sightings Policy' still in effect, and if so when was it last reviewed? If it is not in effect or has been superseded.

A3. The Unusual Aerial Sightings policy was last reviewed in November 2003 and cancelled 25 March 2013.

Comments: 1. This explains why the DOD continually states, today, that it has no protocol around UAP/UFO. 

2. The RAAF, when formally charged by the Australian government to look into the subject, initially referred to the term "Flying Saucers" in their early Policy and sightings files. This was later changed to "Unusual Aerial Sightings." 

Q4. In 2011, the Department of Defence reported that, in response to a FOI request from the Sydney Morning Herald it had 'discovered one file, which had not been destroyed but could not be located'. If it could not be located, how would the Department know that the file had not been destroyed? Were all the files referenced hardcopy only (i.e. not digital.)

A4. A file was confirmed in 2008 to be at the National Archives of Australia. The interest of its location was raised again in 2011, however Defence was unable to verify its location nor held record of the file being destroyed. As such and to date, the Department of Defence cannot confirm its current existence.

Comment: This appears to relate to the fact that the Sydney Morning Herald, on 7 June 2011 published a story about their own FOIA request to the DOD for UFO files. The DOD responded that they could only locate one file "Reports on Strange Occurrences and Phenomenon in Woomera'" and that other UFO files had been destroyed. In addiiton, there was one other file "which had not been destroyed but could not be located." I obtained a digital copy of the Woomera file.

Q5. A reponse from the Department dated 8 June 2011 states that members of the public making reports of 'unusual aerial sightings' are directed to their local police authority. What is the protocol for members of the defence forces when reporting such sightings during military operations and/or normal duty?

A5. The Department of Defence does not have a protocol for reporting or recording of Unidentified Aerial Phenomena (UAP) or Unidentified Flying Objects (UFOs). The Air Force ceased handling reports of UAP or UFO in 1996 after determining that there was no scientific or other compelling reason for the Air Force to continue to devote resources to the recording and investigation of UAP or UFO.

Comment: For a detailed look at the reasons why the RAAF closed down its UFO investigations, as told to me by the RAAF officer involved, click here. 

In their "Statement of Reasons" which accompanied the two page document, Group Captain Peter Davies, kindly provided publically available "further information" which provided a link to the Parliamentary televised  Senate Estimates Committee session where Senator Whish-Wilson questioned Air Marshal Hupfeld.  

Update: 1 April 2022

On 25 February 2022, Senator Whish-Wilson followed up his October 2021 questions. 

Defence Portfolio

SENATE ESTIMATES QUESTION

(Question No. 20)

Senator Peter Whish-Wilson asked the Department of Defence the following question, upon notice, on 25 February 2022:

During the last Supplementary Budget Estimates (in response to a question on notice), the Department of Defence advised that there is no protocol for reporting or recording Unidentified Aerial Phenomena or Unidentified Flying Objects.

1. In a scenario that an airforce pilot, or airforce personnel on the ground (such as monitoring radar), detects or sights an aircraft over Australian airspace, or in their sphere of operation, but is unable to identify the nature of the craft, what is the process/protocol for pilot and/or personnel to report their observation?

2. If there is an existing protocol – how many such observations or sightings have been made in the past 10 years? If there is no protocol – by what means does the air force maintain the security of Australian Airspace in dealing with unidentified craft?

3. What encouragement is given to pilots to make reports of aircraft they cannot identify?

Senator Whish-Wilson – The Department of Defence provides the following answer to the Senator’s question:

1. Any unidentified aircraft identified by Air Force pilots or personnel entering military controlled airspace or pose a safety risk to military aircraft are subject to RAAF Aviation Safety Reporting protocols.

2. Under RAAF Aviation Reporting protocols, there has been no records of observations or sightings of unidentified aircraft over past ten years.

3. There is no specific encouragement given to pilots to report aircraft they cannot identify, rather to report unusual or unexpected events through RAAF Aviation Safety Reporting procedures.

The American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics' UAP Community of Interest

What is the AIAA?

The American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics (AIAA) is the world's largest aerospace technical society. It has around 30,000 individual members from 91 different countries. 

During the AIAA 2021 annual gathering, a panel discussion spoke to the potential aviation safety issues related to Unidentified Aerial Phenomena (UAP.) The panel members were:

* Philippe Ailleris - Project Controller, European Space Agency

* Ted Roe - Director, National Aviation Reporting Center on Anomalous Phenomena Roe's talk may be found here. 

* Peter Reali - Electrical engineer and board director of the Scientific Coalition for UAP Studies

* Dr. Kevin Knuth - Associate Professor of Physics, State University of New York

* Dr. Ravi Kopparapu - NASA Goddard Space Flight Center. Kopparapu's talk may be viewed here. 

* Ryan Graves - former United States Navy fighter pilot.

Following the panel discussion, it was reported that the AIAA would form a UAP study group.

Ryan Graves

On 18 February 2022, Ryan Graves tweeted that he was part of an AIAA UAP Community of Interest (COI.) He reported that the charter for this COI was:

To improve aviation safety by enhancing scientific knowledge, and mitigating barriers to, the study of Unidentified Aerial Phenomena.

The gaols of the COI are:

1. Serve as a neutral focal point enhancing activities that integrate aviation safety related UAP data and analysis into relevant scientific/engineering aspects of aviation development, design, and safety planning across the aviation/space systems.

2. Interact with appropriate AIAA Committees, government agencies, academic institutions and international researchers and organizations associated with the scientific/engineering study and understanding of UAP.

3. Engage with the scientific and engineering research community to assist with educating the Aerospace community relative to aerospace safety factors of UAP.

Graves also advised that, at the 2022 AIAA gathering, a panel of industry, government, and academics will discuss the AIAA's UAP COI mission, to improve aviation safety and advance scientific knowledge.

Not the first time

This current effort is not the first time that the AIAA has tackled the thorny subject of UAP. Back in 1967, the AIAA Technical Committee on Atmospheric Environment and the Technical Committee on Space and Atmospheric Physics looked to form a UFO Subcommittee.  The establishment of the Sub-Committee was announced in the journal "Aeronautics & Astronautics" December 1968, p.12. After examining the evidence todate the UFO Subcommittee presented a statement in "Aeronautics & Astronautics" November 1970, pp 49 - 51.  In the same journal, dated July 1971, the Sub-committee published an article titled "UFO Encounter1: Sample Case Selected by the Sub-Commitee of the AIAA" which took a deep dive into one case from 1957. A 1974 article by Dr. Peter Sturrock, titled "UFO Reports from AIAA members" appeared in the May 1974 edition of "Aeronautics & Astronautics."

Other countries

The Aeronautics and Astronautics Association of France (3AF) has had a UAP Technical Committee for many years. It is called SIGMA2 and looks at what it refers to as Unidentified Aerospace Phenomena.

The German Aerospace Society held a workshop on the topic of the search for extraterrestrial intelligence, and UAP in August 2021. 

Aerospace companies

Since 1947, Aerospace companies as business entities, and aerospace company employees as individuals have exhibited serious interest in UAP. For a comprehensive article exploring their interest, please click here.

Update: 29 June 2022

In a Tweet dated 29 June 2022, Ryan Graves advised that "The AIAA UAP Community of Interest is holding its first technical session as part of AIAA's Aviation 2022 Forum on June 29th, 4pm CST."

In an associated YouTube piece Graves announced that the speakers for the technical session would be:

1. Haqq Misra - Senior Science Investigator, Blue Marble Space Institute of Science - speaking on Carl Sagan and his relationship to UAP.

2. Brian E. Smith - System Safety Specialist and aerospace engineer at NASA Ames - discussing human factors in commercial aviation.

3. David Fravor - ex US Navy pilot.

4. Ryan Graves - ex US Navy pilot - to explain the mission and how you can participate.

In another Tweet dated 29 June 2022, Graves wrote:

"If unable to attend live, the AIAA UAP Community of Interest Technical Session will be available free ~ 2 weeks after Aviation 2022 closes."

Update: 20 October 2022

A new Tweet from Ryan Graves.  https://twitter.com/uncertainvector/status/1582774538466516995

There is a link provided to the new home page for the AIAA UAP COI. https://www.aiaauap.org/

Update: 17 November 2022

In a tweet dated 17 November 2022, Ted Roe advised that "The American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics, AIAA, voted on Monday Nov 15 to recognise our UAP Community of Interest as a fully empowered AIAA UAPP Integration and Outreach Committee dedicated to scientific study of UAP."

Update: 31 May 2023

The UAP Integration & Outreach Committee of the AIAA announced that it will be presenting at AVIATION23 Conference. The link provides details of papers being given. 

Defense Intelligence Agency says it will shortly release AAWSAP/BAASS UAP related material

Letter from the Defense Intelligence Agency

Today, Twitter user @LeeNich40634972 alerted us to an interesting piece of news from a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request he submitted to the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA.) In a tweet, he provided details of a response from the DIA which included the following statement:

"Currently, we are in the process of updating our reading room to provide an estimation of 40 additional records referencing AAWSAP and BAASS. This should be available in the next few weeks."

Background

In 2018, dozens of UAP researchers submitted requests under the FOIA, to the DIA, asking, in various ways, for paperwork on the Advanced Aerospace Weapon System Applications Program (AAWSAP) and Bigelow Aerospace Advanced Space Studies (BAASS). Although a couple of researchers, e.g. Steven Aftergood in 2019, received a final response, the bulk of requesters are still waiting their own final responses.  

The October 2021 publication of the book "Skinwalkers at the Pentagon," by James T. Lacatski; Colm Kelleher and George Knapp, provided a list of over 100 reports, submitted by BAASS to the DIA under the AAWSAP contract. 

Image: Courtesy Amazon Books

So here, it is now 2022 and the DIA has now stated that it is updating its website with "an estimation of 40 additional records referencing AAWSAP and BAASS." 

Note the use of the word "additional."  The current DIA electronic reading room has a tab "Defense Intelligence Reference Documents" (DIRDs) which, when opened, reveals copies of five DIRDs, all of which were previously known. These were prepared under AAWSAP by BAASS.

No further details are available as to what types of records they might be; they could simply be the remaining 33 Defense Intelligence Reference Documents created by the program; or they could be some of the records listed in "Skinwalkers at the Pentagon." At present, no one knows. 

George Knapp interviews Jim Semivan

Jim Semivan

Las Vegas based, investigative journalist George Knapp interviewed former Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) employee, Jim Semivan on 30 January 2022 on Coast to Coast AM. Here are my notes on that interview. My notes focus on references to UAP, and are thin when it comes to general discussion about the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA.)

https://tothestars.media/pages/about

George Knapp (G): My guest Jim Semivan spent 25 years in the CIA, then 12 years as a contractor. Retired in 2007. In 2016 joined To The Stars Academy of Arts & Sciences.

Jim Semivan (J): I met John Alexander after the publication of his book. He said involvement in the UAP topic will get you "tarred and feathered." So, I stayed on the sidelines. However, met a group in California, and decided to get out and talk about the subject.

UAP and CIA

G: Were UFOs discussed at the CIA?

J: I was there 30 something years at the CIA. Nothing spoken about at the CIA. No sign on a door. There was a place where Kit Green worked - the "weird desk." UFOs and paranormal. Got to know people in government who worked on it unofficially. No one ever found a "UFO" office.

My wife and I, in 1991/1992 had an experience - pretty traumatic. The day after that happened a guy in deep cover at the agency said he was going to a UFO conference. I explained what happened to me. He wrote down on a piece of paper the details of Vallee's triology of books. I have always been a student of esoteric works. Not into the paranormal. I was taken aback by it all.

I started to nose around - informal. Knew DoD had AAWSAP going on 2007 or 08 or 09. Heard of Lue. Introduced to Lue by Hal Puthoff. Went to Pentagon inner halls - met Lue and deputy and other people. An unofficial relationship.

Personal experience

G: What can you say about your wife's and your experience?

J: One reason I don't dicsuss it, is that my wife and I are still being studied by another group of people. Had a classic abduction style thing. Except it was in the bedroom in the middle of the night. Beings show up. Pretty upsetting later on. Physical things that happened to both of us. We have documents for all that. Short experience. Real. My wife is a psychologist. It was not a dream or hypnagogic state. Later on, when I met John in 2014/2015, John interviewed both of us - gave him  the data. Couple of people took bloood etc.

G: Ongoing?

J: Not too much later. Last tests about four years ago. Bedroom figures. Miniture version of a messenger.

Discussion on historical role of CIA and UFOs.

UAP and intelligence community

G: What about now? Upper echelons of the intelligence community? Possible reactions?

J: Speculating here. Now people in the IC are willing to take it on. We briefed senior people on the topic. They wanted it to be out in the open. It is truely a national security issue. Don't like - the military/government don't own the topic. Phenomenon shows up everywhere. I want to know what the hell it is. Let's take it private.

G: Big picture stuff. Anyone know the full picture?

J: Don't think anyone knows the true picture. Col Kelleher said its a lot more than nuts and bolts. There is a biological side to it - high strangeness and scary. When started TTSA we discussed this. Do we really want to know?

Discussion on quantum mechanics and conciousness.

Russian or Chinese?

G: UAP, orbs, drones etc. You studied Russian and Chinese technology - could they be Russian or Chinese?

J: Absolutely not. ODNI report - read between the lines - here are possibilities but not Russian or Chinese. No terrestrial - other something.

G: What is the general tone in the intelligence community today?

J: Mixed bag. No one wants to go near it. New task force - have to get people together who know a lot about it. Feel sorry for the guys who have to come up with the answers. I understand the miltary's perspective to some point. Need the new UFO org to have senior person in charge or others not going to share information. Congressional members are very interested.

TTSA

G: TTSA - lofty goals.

J: I first met Tom -Sekret machines. Couple of people came to me and said have you read the book? He had advisors. Who's talking to him? Had an unofficial dinner with Tom. It was apparent he was a smart guy. I guessed who a couple of his advisors were. Next day we had lunch together. Why don't you join my company? He sketched it out. Hal was there. TTSA formed. I met with Lue  who said I'm going to resign from DOD. Hooked up with Tom. Tom hired him. Chris Mellon came on board, as did Steve Justice. I was a little worried - sticking our necks out. Military saddled with the problem now. You have to get guys who know stuff already. People with no background are problematic. I did briefings on the side to other agencies. They have to make up for what they dont know. It was one guy 5% of the time, like AATIP.

G: What about crashes?

J: CRADA still in effect. Senior people from the Army visited us. A while later, another group came out. Both groups were impressed. Don't know what end result will be. Recently rearranged TTSA. Our name now is just To the Stars - an entertanment company. Will start up the podcast again.

G: Stories from Vallee and Nolan, stories about entire craft and bodies. Real? Someone has craft and bodies?

J: Let that go. Not going there.

G: CRADA timeline?

J: Don't know. Pieces of Mg-Bi - waveguide - Some say result of some process. You don't have to figure it all out, just get some ideas.

The story of Bob Lazar. You gave me a thumbnail sketch of Lazar. I don't have issues. I believe what he says is accurate. Edward Snowden was a smart kid. The government hired him yet he didn't have any degrees. Shows no sign of deception in  interviews.

Phone question from a listener. The hitchhiker effect. Could relate it with hauntings. Could it attach itself to an entity/company/private contractor?

J: If contractor involved with UAP, maybe. I had poltergeist activity in my house for years.

John Ramirez interviewed by George Knapp

Coast to Coast

On 30 January 2022, an ex-CIA employee, John Ramirez was interviewed by George Knapp, on Coast to Coast AM. Here is a set of my notes from that interview. Every time I hear John Ramirez interviewed, I learn a little bit more about his work in the UAP arena, as well as something about his own experiences, views and opinions. 

John Ramirez

The notes

George Knapp (G): John Ramirez served in the CIA between 1984 and 2009. Science and technology area. Ballistic missile defence and radar analyst. Prior to the CIA he was in the Navy. Can you share how you came to work for the CIA?

John Ramirez (J): While growing up I was always interested in the Intelligence Community. In the Navy I was in electronic warfare. Wrote to the CIA while I was in the Navy. Finished the Navy and got a degree, then I saw a newspaper ad for the CIA. One year later, I was being polygraphed and on 18 June 1984 joined the CIA. In a way its like working for a news organisation. 

Personal experiences

In my childhood, when I was aged 4, parents got me my first telescope. I felt I should just be out there. I didn't belong here. Experiences of mine included  being examined by a doctor and nurse in a house. I remember reading books - one book had illustrations of a man and a woman. In the woman's hand was a modern human baby. Above them were two flying saucers. The message to me was where we come from.  Got an astronomy book. Felt message - somewhere, someone was looking at me. All through my life - as a teenager, wanted to be 'taken.' Felt I belonged to somewhere else.

One occasion was when a tall being took me through a window - I saw inside the craft - circular. I was placed on an examing table. Groin markings found next day.

G: Did you tell the CIA about this?

J: They were on only interested in lifestyle. Is there anything in your life which an enemy could use against you? 

G: Did you share UFO information within the CIA?

J: Absolutely. I met other experiencers in the CIA. Also NSA folks. One guy told me his brother and he saw a craft land as a child. People were inside. I went to UFO conferences. Prior to going, I gave details to the relevant inhouse CIA area. I went as a private citizen. The CIA never requested me to spy on people. After the first three years, and then every five years, you undergo reinvestigation. You are asked what hobbies you have? I told them about my UFO interests.

G: Anything more formal? Briefings? Discussions?

Russian encounters

J: No. There is no CIA office door that says "UFOs." My job was ballistic missiles. There were instances where Russian radar "would detect unusual craft." Their strategic rocket forces went on alert, coincident with a detection of something over their air space.  I was the analyst for a certain Russian large phase radar looking over the north pole. It detected something. I wrote a memo for the Deputy Secretary of Defense John Deutch, so that would place it in the Clinton administration in the 1990's.

Also I did see something occurring in Russia when they interacted with a craft. Russian government knew about the phenomenon. Purposely wanted to lure it down. Major General in Russia "Alexaef" [phonetic spelling - KB] said they used lasers and radar. They used the radar I was the anlayst for. Profoundly interesting, but I can't talk about it.

G: No CIA door saying "UFOs." Does it exist somewhere?

J: Gerald Haines, official historian for the CIA, wrote a paper about the CIA and UFOs between 1947 and 1990. There was always some part of the CIA interested in the topic. I think the Life Science area was the most interested. Medical people studying UFOs. Why? Bodies - I dont know. They also looked into remote viewing and the paranormal. They looked at what Russia waas doing in these areas.

G: Petrozavodsk case in Russia. 1977 jellyfish. That started a 10 year long study by Russia until 1987. I met the guy running it. Was that on your radar?

J: Yes it was. First heard of the case through open source article in Aviation Week. Purple domes of light. Soviet air defence systems would be triggered by these domes. Coincident with rocket tests.

S band radar would track the missile and artefacts travelling with the missile. FTD believe it could be counter measures - masking a first strike. Russians treated it as a UAP. IS 25 and 27 missiles. There were domes associated with them - exhausts. Not like the domes seen earlier. One time an American aircraft was monitoring tests near Kamchatka when one of the pilots described a wall of white light coming towards him at 6200 mph, from ground level to high up. Robert S. Hopkins. Analysts still believed it was counter measures to obscure tests.

G: Could Russia or China be responsible for what the Navy saw?

J: I dont believe so. Drones do not exhibit the five observables. It is not foreign technology.

G: Where were you when you saw the Gimbal video?

J: Unusual - as for a sensor malfuction - no.

G: Do you jump into Twitter conversations?

J: Not just Navy aircraft. Seen by advanced sensors. KH11 satellites - NRO - I would believe the government has very good data. I am led to believe that we have better data.

Congressional knowledge

G: Has Congress seen this stuff?

J: Armed Services and Intelligence Committees of the House and the Senate would have access to this data. They fund these satellites.

G: There are lots of guesses by armchair people - tic tac, spheres, Gimbal, pyramids, which say they are all US tech. I can't imagine the military lying to committees.

J: I don't think that can happen. The tech being exhibited - if they had this tech we aren't going to tease our own side.

G: Thoughts on who they are? Why they are here? Are we ever going to know? Stepping forward.

J: It was important for me to come forward after Dec 2017. I had my 74 slide show presentation cleared by the Office of Pre-publication. It came back all unclassified. I see highly evolved beings which come from a reptilian ancestry. Othe experiencers in government see mantis types. Government has addressed who is behind flying craft. I have three groups 1) strangers, 2) visitors, 3) residents. Perhaps it is because of what we have done to the planet. They are interested in our nuclear weapons - they might not want that to hppend to their creation.

Nukes and UAP

Malstrom USAF base incident. Robert Salas. The phenomena disabled missiles on 16 March 1967. Miniutemen. That summer Johnson as President met with the Rusians and started to look at reducing the number of nuclear missiles. Since then there has been a decline in numbers, and we advise each other of test launches and we look into this.

G: Would they intervene?

J: I would hope they would. Hastings' book - Navy - deploy nuclear capable ships. No surprise to me that we have reports of USOs.

G: You mentioned Russia tried to lure UAP. I have heard rumors that the US Navy also tried to lure UAP.

J: I don't know. Not heard about that. in NADAA 2022 - has language about capturing a UAP. That suggest we might shoot one down. Better way would be non-kinetic.

Russia reported that they attracted one on the ground. Put arm up - UAP went up. Leaned one way, craft leaned that way.

G: Why the Navy?

Chase Brandon

J: It is unusual that the USAF is absent. Navy had nuclear vessels. Probably why. 13/7/12 - Chase Brandon on C2C. He said that they were transmedium and tracked seven craft - sounds like he was informed. He was CIA and did write a novel but with the facts in there. Non human beings in the Roswell files at the CIA. 

Chase couldn't write it as a factual book. Cleared by Pre-publication. Catalysmic event in the future might need aliens to intervene. DNI Gates said he had a lot of respect for Chase.

G: Melinda Leslie. Did you go on her tour and did you see anything?

J: Yes. Two weeks ago. Saw orbs through military grade nightscope. Saw craft. Satellites do not skip. One did just that. String of five closely spaced lights. Particiapnts given lasers to alert each other. Melinda told him that on a subsequent tour, a structured craft was seen. Go to Sedona for the tour.

G: Beings - more than one intelligence. Can we figure it out?

J: I am encouraged by what Avril Haines said - extraterrestrially. Government says there are things we can't explain. Former Intelligence community leaders have made statements. Tend to believe they are benevolent. Havana syndrome. Tends to happen to IC officers.

The session then opened to phone questions, during which John says that he has been trying to locate Chase Brandon and that George should interview Brandon. 

James Iandoli interviews Dr. Garry Nolan re analysis of UAP materials

Dr. Garry Nolan

On 7 February 2022, Dr. Garry Nolan appeared on the "Engaging the Phenomenon" Podcast. Subjects covered included anomalous cognition, UAP materials and experiencers. The following are my notes on the interview. They are not meant as a comprehensive transcript.

Garry Nolan

The notes

Garry Nolan (G): Science is not absolute. You should always be willing to be proven wrong at a later date. My methodology focus is on peer-review. Be careful about claiming you have a conclusion.

James Iandoli (J): You were visited by people from the CIA?

G: People from the government. Had a cohort of around 100 patients. Now, we understand that many of them had symptoms similar to Havana syndrome (1). 

J: Is Havana syndrome attributed to UAP?

G: No. 80-100 patients. No explanation as to how they had come to be hurt. Range of symptoms. This was around 2012/2013. (2). handed it over to Kit Green. In 2018/2019 cases of Havana syndrome peaked. Kit realized that our patients had symptoms similar to Havana syndrome. Took them out of our cohort. 

Co-incidently, findings re damage to brain. MRI of individuals made this clear it was in living tissue. Normal part of the brain. Hyperextended/over dense in some individuals. What's different about these people? (3).

High-functioning individuals-indicator of intellectual ability. I'm speculating it's to do with intuition? Lot of evidence that part of the brain is involved in intuition. 

Needed a new data set. Working with a lab at Harvard in this area of the brain. What does it do? AI program looks at MRIs. It has validated Kit's findings. (4). 

We have now submitted a paper to a Journal. There may be other areas of the brain which are also different in these individuals. Data set includes individuals on the autism spectrum and with schizophrenia. This is mainstream science and not related to UAP.

J: Contributed to, by Lue?

G: I met Lue about a month before the UAP videos were released. Got to know Lue and the whole crowd better.

Were Nimitz 2004 incident participants affected?

J: Were some people in the Nimitz incident affected?

G: There are good reasons why I shouldn't answer that.

J: Slide 9 - AATIP briefing slide has a line "cognitive human interface." Do you know what this refers to?

G: My understanding - these things can interact with us. No personal experience. Learnt that speculating is often taken by many people, as fact.

UAP related materials

J: Materials study from alleged UAP. Can you give us some background?

G: Mostly came from Jacques Vallee. Came with a story. Council Bluffs event. Good chain of custody. Primarily, is a non spectacular case. Point was to say this is how you do the research. Two years between paper's submission and publication. Time delay was due to me doing other work. There will be a number of other papers written up. Maybe someone will find something useful; there.

J: Any interesting material?

G: Ubatuba. (5). Anomalous magnesium. Two pieces came with separate chain of custody. To the eye, exactly the same. Took two samples from each piece. Analysis - two samples normal, and two samples odd. Could be 1) the result of a non-natural process or 2) downstream of an industrial proces which turned it into not normal.(6).

J: Better samples?

G: Someone in government has them but I will get hold of them. Don't know where they came from. Don't know why they are interesting. Developing a new instrument to analyse.

Biological affects

J: Biological effects. Kit Green's DIRD? (7).

G: Simple thing - don't get close to anything generating energy. Don't think there is anything magic in that advice. Cash-Landrum case. Travis Walton case. 

J: Do you have any data on those cases?

G: No.

J; Chris Bledsoe said he got close to a UAP and his health was affected.

G: Met John Burroughs with Colm. John Burroughs had a claim of health issues. Kit helped him to get the medical care he needed. (8).

J: Hitchhiker effect? (9). Is that a trackable thing?

G: It's trackable. It's an inflammatory event. I need acute case - few days after the event. Take blood then.

J: Hitchhiker, can you verify goes from person to person?

G: Evidence of inflammatory event. Know of one case where hitchhiker tracked through a family, but no blood was taken.

J: Negative and positive events?

G: I was invited several times to go to the ranch, I refused. Zero interest in making myself a target.

CE5

J: Thoughts on 'contact' on a larger scope - CE5?

G: Set up a video and a brainwave machine and monitor. Don't just go into the desert and tell me it happened. You could set up such a study.

What ever it is, it has been going on for thousands of years. The phenomenon is not going to behave to your expectations.

J: There is a level of interaction - from personal experience.

G: To prove it on a scientific sense - record it, validate it. Use EEG.

J: Would you run such a study?

G: Other people are better positioned to do that.

J: What do you think of Jacques Vallee's control idea?

G: It makes sense. Galileo Project has the ability to collectd data.

J; You just recently signed on to the Galileo Project. What do you hope comes out of it?

G: In the best possibe world - would be able to track something.

J: What about Congressional hearings?

G: Can only be a good thing. Evidence of people's interest - the New York Times UAP article had the highest number of readers of any NYT article. Scientists want evidence. Collect data to be peer reviewed. I'm not a "true believer." I'm looking for evidence. At the very least, its a puzzle. At one level, I dont think that we are going to solve it in my lifetime.

J: What do you think of the hypotheses that its classified human tech?

G: If it is, shame on the people behind it for not sharing it.

J: What are some of the implications of that tech?

G: What is the energy source? Somebody could mis-use it.

J: Some speculation - if we are dealing with a non-human intelligence, what could we do?

G: Figure out its intent. Try and communicate with it. Hopefully it would make us realise that we have more in common with each other than not.

J: Speculation - out of all the UAP hypotheses, which is the coolest?

G: The notion that there is a greater reality. Maybe energy can be organised into ways other than matter.

J: Is it possible that we will create better tech to interact with UAP?

G: I hope so.

J: Do you think progress is being made?

G: Absolutely.

J: What would your parting words be for sceptics?

G: Be patient. No ridiculous answers. Non sceptics should challenge sceptics. They have a part to play.

J: Academics?

G: Is there money available for research? Lobby to have funds set aside for this research. If no money available, just do preparatory work.

J: What about the general public?

G: Organise. Get involved.

J: What can be done?

G: Organise. Lobby elected officials.

J: Disclosure day?

G: Don't think so. It's a slow realisation.

J: What would be the greatest thing to come out of all of this?

G: New tech to help people. Something that results in people not fighting.

Notes on my notes

(1) Havana syndrome. Is a cluster of health symptoms experienced, mainly outside the USA, by US officials and military personell. First reported in 2016 by US and Canadian embassy staff in Havana, Cuba. For a detailed discussion of symptoms  and potential causes click here. 

(2) If Garry Nolan was approached by some government people in 2012/2013 this was after the cessation of the Advanced Aerospace Weapon System Applications Program. 

(3) For further information on what Garry was referring to here, please see my article on "Antennas, and Dr. Viola Pettit Neal." 

(4) For some background reading in this area, see Kit Green's 2017 paper titled "Incidental MRI and Genomic Findings in Human Striatum: Implications for Behavioral/Cognitive Research." 

(5) For more on the 1957 Ubatuba, Brazil incident, click here. 

(6) For further detail on this, please take a look at my notes from the intervew Garry gave on the Soft Robotics Podcast. 

(7) Kit Green wrote a document which was turned into A Defense Intelligence Reference Document, titled "Clinical Medical Acute & Subacute Field Effects on Human Dermal & Neurological Tissues." 

(8) For more details about the experiences and UAP related health issues of Burroughs, I wrote an article about this in 2014. 

(9) In the 2021 book, "Skinwalkers at the Pentagon" there is much written about the fact that some individuals who visited Skin Walker Ranch carried "something" back to their homes and their families. Who then experienced poltergeist-like, and othe phenomena.

Image courtesy of Amazon Books

(10) Ever since certain US Congressional membrs were briefed on UAP, some have suggestedd that Conbgerssional hearings should be held. However, as at the date of this post there have been no such hearings.

A new interview with Dr. Garry Nolan - analysis of materials

 Background

Dr. Garry P. Nolan recently co-authored a paper, which in part was about his analysis of unusual material from a 1977 incident which happened in Council Bluffs, Iowa, USA; and appeared in the peer-reviewed Journal "Progress in Aerospace Sciences."   After the paper was published, he was recently interviewed by Marwa EIDiwiny, on the Soft Robotics Podcast. Here are my notes from that interview. They are not intended to be a transcript of the whole podcast, but key points that I picked up; particularly information of which I was not previously aware. 

Garry P. Nolan

Interview

Marwa: What's the story here?

Garry: About a decade ago, there was a report on the Internet about a small mummy, which some people thought was an alien. I thought I could do genetics and determine whether it was human or other. I published a paper stating that the mummy was human (1.) The UFO community didn't like that. It was about doing good science. It brought me to the attention of people in the government. "...help them to study individuals who they had claimed they had got close to supposed craft." (2.) Analysing some of these individuals. They were all intelligence presonnel or DoD aircrew, pilots etc. Some of them related to the Nimitz incident. Then government says you can look at MRIs and do blood work.

"We also have these materials that supposedly some of these craft have left behind. What would you do with them if we gave you some of them, or we asked you to help with some of them?"

I had some instruments in my lab, so did that and published a paper. (3.)

M: Were you afraid to do that work?

G: Not afraid. Afraid what some of my colleagues might say. I said the data is real. You can only argue about the interpretation.

"Some of the materials that we have measured have anomalous isotopic ratios. The isotopes in one of these examples, and the data has to be reproduced by others, has incorrect magnesium isotopic ratios. So, magnesium has three isotopes, 24, 25 and 26. 24 is about 80%, and then there is 11 and 9% or 9 and 11 for 25 and 26. That's what you would find, pretty much what you would find anywhere on Earth. And pretty much what you would find on Mars if you were to go and collect magnesium on Mars, and if you were to go out to the Oort cloud it would be pretty much about the same ratios. 

So, the ratios of one of these samples that we got from an unusual observation of an object is, something like 60%, 20% and 10%. (4.) Completely off normal. So, that's not proof of anything right, that's just data. You have to ask the question, who would change the ratios?Right, because if you make the assumption, and it is an assumption , that there's nothing in the immediate solar system that should have such anomalous ratios.

Ok, so that means it was potentially made somehow, by somebody. Why would you do that? The questions is not so  much did it happen? The question that is more important is why would you do that?"

We don't undersatnd why you would change isotopic ratios. What industrial process would change them? People in government have speculated that the materials might be downstream of a propulsion system.

M; How sure are you that the material comes from a UFO?

G: We get offerings from people. Need a good sense of chain of custody. In case of the magnesium, it came from Ubatuba, Brazil. Nolan then describes the Council Bluffs incident (5.) Terrestrial but each sub-sample is different in terms of elements - incompletely mixed together material. I was contacted by a person whose mother saw an object which dropped molten metal. He is sending a sample to me.

The Department of Defence has created an office to collect this type of information (6.) Money is coming to the table. I will be applying for some of it. Analysis of materials so far has come out of my own pocket - about $70,000. Since the paper was published, I now have students from  Stanford and Harvard willing to help. You need to talk about it in a credible way. Collect the data. Ask what can we learn from these materials?

M: What has been the most interesting?

G: Isotopic ratios probably the most interesting. When the magnesium from  Ubatuba happened. Would have been expensive to alter isotopic ratios. There are some companies who sell milligram sized samples for tens of thousands of dollars with altered ratios. Stuff we have is in pounds. Would have cost millions of dollars to create. There is another material - I have some pieces of it, bismuth-magnesium (7) layered in small sized layers. The open question is, was it manufactured, or a product of standard smelting? I don't know. I've looked at that material. It is layered in an interesting way and each of the layers is made of a different element. That doesn't sound like something you would find in a smelting pot.

"I don't know what these things are but now the office is funded, basically, I'm hoping to get access to some of the other materials that are claimed to be owned by the government, to take a look at it. Interestingly, it's not just the US government that has these things. Right, there's actually some stories coming out of China, that the Chinese; some of the Chinese aircraft carriers are seeing something. There's stories coming out of Russia. There's a very good story out of, two stories, out of both India and Iran, about things that have been seen. So, again seen by the air forces of those respective countries. So, it's not just  Americancentric. I know France for instance, has a very big program on a study of these things."

It's world-wide. What they are, I don't know. Bring the right kinds of minds and either we will prove it is something natural. If it is something from out there, why wouldn't you want to know this?

M: Materials are not 100% of the picture?

G: We are getting only a small piece of the picture. What don't we know? I want to know more. There are other objects supposedly. I always wonder if I'm being fed a hoax? I would like to get hold of something contemporaneous, recent, where the story is new (8.)  The object we can get hold of almost immediately. Bring forensic resources to understand it. So called Tic tacs - need a very large amount of energy to do what they do. Could the object have access to unconventional physics? How are they doing it? Discusses "warp bubbles."

M: Materials and behaviours?

G: I am a big reader of science-fiction.. Materials we see ejected could be some form of propulsion. Others say that the bismuth-magnesium material is a waveguide. We are only at the beginning of understanding physics. I look at isotopes - e.g. Lithium is used in psychiatry for treating mental illness.We could look at isotopes differently. 

M: Are we fully aware of the Russian and Chinese technology?

G: Elizondo, Mellon and Davis are knowledgable about tech. Russia and China are studying it too. Could be the beginning of a new arms race to understand this tech. We need open access to information - then no-one has the upper hand. Get information out in a safe and credible way. Make it respectable to ask the question. Then give people data. Proving the data is real, is the first step.

M: We speculate where it comes from. Why designed in that way? Can we reverse engineer?

G: Speculate that the layered Bismuth-magnesium sample is somehow involved in propulsion. Maybe we can make it. Test it with tetrahertz waves. Look at current physics, make different assumptions. In my lab work we ask the question what is the inevitable data needed? Imagine a science-fiction level instrument, then back track to the practical level. Start with the impossible and reverse engineer to make a practical level one.

M: What is material - intelligent design?

G: Clearly something which has an understanding of physics that we don't. Friend of mine worked for the CIA in technology acquisition. Would sometimes come across Russian technology that he didn't understand. Russian physicists started from different assumptions. Eventually CIA worked it out.

One of the instruments that we are trying to build in my lab is an atomic imaging scope. See position of every atom. There is no such instrument today that does that. My primary reason for using that, is biology but it will also do materials analysis. Form equals function. 

M: What other questions do you want to answer?

G: Frankly, who made it? Then what is the goal or agenda? Goal leads to function leads to materials needed. Range of questions opened up. If these things are real what does it imply for religious aspects?

M: The people who visited your office - UFO/ET?

G: "They didn't come to me saying these were ETs or those were UFOs. They came saying we have these individuals who were harmed. We know, and everyone tells us that you have made the best blood analysis systems currenlty used in the world. What can you tell us about their blood? Or what can your diagnostic instrumentation tell us about what happened to these people? "

Might tell us what the energy involved is, and a safe range to approach it. I had looked at all the medical files made available to me. I was convinced the data was real, but didn't know what conclusions could I make?

I always ask myself, am I being fooled? Is someone trying to discredit this area of work? Need to go through the peer-review process.

M: Why is academia not open minded?

G: Made fun of for years. Ancient Astronauts show is silly. People are afraid of being shamed. I don't care what other people think of me, if I'm right. Mindsets are changing.

M: Other possibilities which would help?

G: Advance science to aspire to another level of physics. Maybe there's an energy we can use. I'm an optimist. I'm 61. I don't expect that in the next 20 years we will fully understand this. I think others will make the big discoveries. I see potential for humanity at large.

M: Life changing advice?

G: Best advice is don't try to convince anyone of a conclusion. Publish it if you can. Set up study groups at a professional level. The Aeronautical and aerospace community - 50,000 people, held a four hour symposium (9) and set up a study group. Could be an aviation hazard. I'm working to try and get the biology community to set up a study group. 

M: Final words?

G: Thanks the audience. If anyone has any materials let me know.

Notes on notes:

(1) Bhattacharys, S. et al. 2018. "Whole-genome sequencing of Atacama skelton shows novel mutations linked with dysplasia." Genome Research, online 7 April 2018. 

(2) For an examination of Garry Nolan's work in this area, see my blog post reporting on three of his previous interviews.

(3) Garry P. Nolan; Jacques F. Vallee; Sizan, Jian; Larry G. Lemke.  2021. "Improved Instrumental Techniques Including Isoptopic Analysis, Applicable to the Charactrization of Unusual Materials with Potential Relevance to Aerospace Forensics." Progress in Aerospace Sciences, volume 128, January 2022.

(4) The sample being discusssed here, was from the 1957 Ubatuba, Brazil incident. Further details may be read in a previous post.

(5) The Council Bluffs, Ohio incident is well described in the 2022 Nolan et al paper, see note (3) above.

(6) This is the Airborne Object Identification and Management Synchronization Group. See previous post here.

(7) In  my catalogue titled "Preliminary Catalogue of Analysis of Alleged "Fragments" Reportedly Associated with Sightings of Unidentified Aerial Phenomena," the latest case is dated 2014.

(8) Commonly refered to as "Arts parts." For further information click here. 

(9) At an August 2021 symposium, held by the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics (AIAA),  there was a four hour panel titled "Advocating for Scientific Study of Unidentified Aerial Phenomena - Technical Perspective with Focus on Aviation Safety."