Tuesday, December 31, 2019

Senator Amy Klobuchar answers a question re UFOs


Senator Amy Klobuchar, is a Democrat from Minnesota, who is currently running for the U.S. presidency. US researcher, D Dean Johnson reported on Twitter on 30 December 2019 that Senator Klobuchar had been asked a question about UFOs, and Johnson quoted some of her response to that question. I thought it would be worthwhile to quote the entire interview.


The questioner was journalist Daymond Steer of the Conway Daily Sun newspaper. Steer has been questioning senators about UFOs for some time.

Steer: "Last time we met, I asked you about David Fravor, the New Hampshire man who was a pilot..."

Klobuchar: "Yes, and I've since looked into that."

Steer: " You've looked in to it?"

Klobuchar: "Yes." Laughter drowns out comments. "Yes, with the UFOs."

Steer: "Yes. Right."

Klobuchar: "Exactly. I've read some articles about it. And, you know, I think we don't know enough. I don't know. I mean,  I don't know what happened, not just with that sighting, but with others. And, I think one of the things a President could do is to look into what's there; in terms of what does the science say; what does the military say? Here's the interesting part of that answer, is that some of the stuff is really old, these sightings. So, why can't you see if you can let some of that out for the public? So, earnest journalists like you, who are trying to get to the bottom of the truth would be able to see it?"

Steer: "Awesome. Just so you know, Senator Shaheen got the briefing, so maybe you can find some of this out..."

Klobuchar: "I also realize she got a briefing, which I thought was. I also read that article."

Moderator: "A little bit of back story is that Daymond asked Hillary that question..."

Klobuchar: "She didn't tell you what came out of it. That is my point. She would have violated the rules of..."

Steer: "But she promised to look into it."

Klobuchar: "Yes. Exactly. But what a President could do is to be able to figure out, can we release some of the information now, publicly?"

Steer: "Well I will look forward to that investigation."

Klobuchar: "OK."

Moderator: "Daymond asked Hillary. She said that, that story went viral. Like a world wide viral. The article said that  the Conway Daily Sun always asks two question of the candidates. One is the UFO..."

Update dated 1 January 2020

Douglas D Johnson informs me that the "Conway Daily Sun" has now posted a related news story on their web site. He also graciously informed me that it was researcher Giuliano Marinkovic who first alerted us to the "Conway Daily Sun" video. Thanks Giuliano.

Sunday, December 29, 2019

NIDS and the "Day After" scenarios

"Day After" scenarios

This is another in a series of posts examining material on the former website of the now defunct National Institute for Discovery Science (NIDS - 1995 to 2004.) This post concerns the question of, if something big happens, how would people react to it? The "Day After" scenario.


Firstly, I draw upon the diaries of Jacques Vallee. In "Forbidden Science: Volume Four" Vallee tells of his time (1995-1999, this volume of his diaries ends in 1999) as a member of the NIDS Science Advisory Board (SAB.)

Diary entry dated 4 August 1996 (page 324)

Referring to a NIDS SAB meeting, Vallee writes:

"Another notion introduced at this meeting was that of The Day After. "What would happen if the government was to announce Alien intrusions? Has there been a 50-year program of indoctrination of earthlings?" Asked Bob. "Are we just along for the ride? Is this knowledge digestible? Would people bother to go to work the next day?"

10 January 1997 (p349)

NIDS SAB meeting. Vallee writes:

"...John Petersen presented alternative futures, using the tools of futurology, complexity theory, game changers, "day after" scenarios, wild cards."

12 January 1997 (p353)

At a private meeting with John Petersen and Steve Travino:

"Still certain that a major announcement is imminent, John Petersen keeps worrying about "the Day After." My idea for the Day After is simply to kneel in the dust and pray, just in case."

9 March 1997 (p359)

"Through the Institute, Bob Bigelow is channeling money to...(5) John Petersen's "Day After" scenarios..."

11 January 1998 (p402)

"Bob Bigelow just called, intent on briefing me about the part of the meeting that I'd missed. He proposes to sponsor two new studies on the subject of the social effect of an announcement of (1) a major asteroid fall and (2) the reality of UFOs as extraterrestrial craft.

"What would be the consciousness aspects in both cases?" he asks, reasonably enough. But he has a deeper agenda, an inner certainty that a dramatic development (spectacular display by the phenomenon or striking announcement by the government) will happen 'soon.'"

9 January 1999 (p439)

"Bob Bigelow is still fascinated with "Day After" scenarios. Standing before the full board...he went over the history of our efforts from the initial appeal to the military to the more recent idea of having our own contingency plan if it turned out, as he put it, that "we were cohabiting on the Earth with non-human entities that controlled our destiny."

NIDS website

Having read Vallee's diary entries on this topic, I then turned to the archived NIDS website. On this, I found the following relevant documents.

1. Roper Poll Survey on "The Day After Contact"

a. Press release on the NIDS Roper Poll June 7, 1999

* 2 pages dated 7 June 1999

* "What if we were confronted with undeniable proof that ETs exist and have been visiting Earth?"

* A nationwide survey by the Roper organization

* "...one out of four Americans think that most people would "totally freak out and panic" if such evidence were confirmed."

* "A 1960 report by the Brookings Institute and an internal RAND document from 1968 predicted profound social consequences if contact were confirmed."

b. Roper Poll Methodology

* A national cross section of 1,971 US men and women interviewed face to face in their own homes

c. Roper Poll Data

* 12 pages of raw data

* Lists the questions which the survey asked

* Has a number of tables breaking down the data in various ways

* Key question: "If you personally believed an announcement that an advanced extraterrestrial life form had  been discovered, to what extent would it change your lifestyle?"

2. Two NIDS "Day After" Surveys on Responses of the Public to Extraterrestrials: Comparison of a National Roper Poll with an Online Survey that Asked Identical Questions

* In 1999, NIDS contracted Roper to conduct a poll re response to extraterrestrials

* As a comparative exercise NIDS later asked the same questions on an online questionnaire

* This paper looks at the results of the comparisons

a. Survey results

* 9 pages of data

* Graphs, pie charts etc

* Shows the questions asked.

b. Take the NIDS Online "Day After Contact" survey

c. View the NIDS extraterrestrial Intelligence Survey Results

* This PDF file is no longer available on the server.

3. The Day After Contact: Forcasting Reactions to Extraterrestrial Life

* 6 page report authored by Albert A Harrison and Colm Kelleher

* Dated June 1999

* "Incontrovertible evidence of the existence of intelligent extraterrestrial life may qualify as one of the greatest discoveries in the history of human life. What will be the short-term and long-term effects of discovery on people, institutions and culture?"

My comment: In 2004, the NIDS website listed Albert A Harrison as a member of the NIDS SAB.

Interestingly, on the NIDS website is another "Day After Contact" survey. This was conducted in 1994, and undertaken by Victoria Alexander, for the Bigelow Foundation


* "...how would organized religion in the United States react to confirmation of contact with an advanced extraterrestrial civilization?"

* Mail out of survey to 1,000 randomly selected religious bodies in the continental USA

* 23% response rate

* "The theologians surveyed would not feel their faith and the faith of their congregation would be threatened."

c. Development of Questions and Analysis of Responses

Later articles

I found two later articles which build on the original Alexander Survey:

1. Levin, J. 2012. "Revisiting the Alexander UFO Religious Crisis Survey (AUFORCS): Is There Really a Crisis?" Journal of the Society for Scientific Exploration, Vol. 26, No. 2, pp273-284.

2. The Peters ETI Religious Crisis Survey authored by Ted Peters and Julie Froehlig (undated.) 

My comment:

As with the contents of the first two posts in this series, I hadn't previously, particularly paid much attention to the specific area of "Day After Contact" scenarios. I record my research her, for those blog readers who may have a deeper interest than myself.

Update: 2 January 2020

A correspondent sent me a PDF copy of missing file mentioned in 2c above. The text reads:

Two NIDS “Day After” Surveys on Response of the Public to Extraterrestrials:
Comparison of a Nationwide Roper Poll with an Online Survey that Asked Identical

In 1999 NIDS contracted the Roper organization to conduct a nationwide survey of
opinion that focused on the response of the public to extraterrestrials. The Roper
organization polled 1971 demographically balanced people and the results of the poll
were published in 1999. As a comparative exercise, NIDS subsequently asked the
identical questions via an online questionnaire. 2046 people who were demographically
uncontrolled submitted answers in the allotted time. There is widespread agreement that
Internet surveys, especially conducted on specialty web sites, are wildly inaccurate in
sampling public opinion. The purpose of this exercise was to evaluate the extent of the
difference in attitudes to extraterrestrials between the public at large and the visitors to
the NIDS web site. The actual wording of the survey questions can be found in the piechart
presentation. The complete statistics and some analysis of the 1999 Roper survey
can be found at: http://www.nidsci.org/news/roperdayafter.html

Some predictable differences and some surprises emerged from this comparison:

• In response to question 1: “ETs landed and you could choose who should make
first contact?” a huge majority (86%) of the online responders chose either
scientists (42%) or a private organization that has planned for such a contingency
(44%). In contrast, only 49% of the public at large chose the scientists (29%) or a
private organization (20%). Fully 20% of the public at large preferred the military
to make first contact, while 4% of online responders preferred the military.

• In response to the question regarding “What are UFOs?” a surprisingly high
percentage of online responders answered “I don’t know” (41%), higher than the
public at large (32%). Equally surprisingly, exactly 25% of both the public at
large and the online responders answered that UFOs are alien spaceships. Given
the assumption that the people who visit the NIDS web site might have a greater
interest/knowledge of UFOs than the general public, it surprised us that such a
high percentage of the web site visitors answered that they did not know what
UFOs are. This may be attributed to open-mindedness. Further, since the words
“UFO” and “alien” are almost interchangeable in most media treatments of this
topic, it surprised us that such a low percentage (25%) of people in BOTH
surveys thought UFOs were alien spaceships.

• In response to the question: “If I believed that an advanced extraterrestrial life
form had been discovered, how would it change my life style?” 16% of Roper
nationwide respondents answered “Who cares”, while predictably, 2% of NIDS
web site online people answered “Who cares.”

• Question 4 asked how much the respondents trusted the US government to
disseminate information about advanced extraterrestrial life if they discovered it.
Both surveys indicated a large majority of respondents who did not trust the
government. A combined 71% respondents to the Roper survey said that the
United States government would classify the information, move to suppress
civilian sources from obtaining knowledge, or both. A combined 74% of the
NIDS web site respondents said the same thing. There was a significant difference
in the degree of suspicion between the Roper respondents and the online visitors:
only 23% of the Roper respondents said the government would classify AND
suppress, while 47% of the NIDS web site respondents said the government
would do both.

• A large majority (75%) of NIDS online responders were “fully prepared to
handle” undeniable evidence of the existence of advanced extraterrestrial life,
while only 32% of the general public were that confident.

• 25% of the public at large thought that others would “totally freak out and panic”
if undeniable evidence of extraterrestrial life were confirmed. Only 8% of the
NIDS web site responders thought this. NIDS web site responders displayed
either greater trust, greater confidence or greater complacency in their answers to
these two questions than did the general public.

Friday, December 27, 2019

Yes, indeed, BAASS' AAWSAP contract did, in part, investigate UAP


In a blog post dated 12 December 2019, I presented a transcript of an interview dated 28 September 2008, between Las Vegas journalist George Knapp, and Las Vegas businessman Robert T Bigelow. During that interview, Bigelow announced the launch of Bigelow Aerospace Advanced Space Studies (BAASS) and outlined the mission for BAASS.

Who did BAASS employ?

The purpose of this current blog is to take a look at who BAASS employed; what were their duties, and then try and answer the question, did the Defense Intelligence Agency's (DIA) Advanced Aerospace Weapon System Applications Program (AAWSAP) investigate UAP?

Although there have been statements made in individual LinkedIn profiles by former senior BAASS employees, that 40-50 people were employed by BAASS, I have only been able to document about 20 from individual LinkedIn pages. Thus the following may only be a representative sample of those who were employed at BAASS.

Via the Wayback Machine, I located the relevant Bigelow Aerospace website (BAASS itself did not have their own website) where BAASS advertised vacant positions, back in September 2008. BAASS commenced the Defense Intelligence Agency's  (DIA) Advanced Aerospace Weapon System Applications Program (AAWSAP) contract on 29 September 2008.

The advertisement was headed:

"You are the intelligent life we are seeking" and read:

"BAASS Career Opportunities.

Bigelow Aerospace Advanced Space Studies (BAASS), a sister company to Bigelow Aerospace, is a newly formed research organization that focuses on the identification, evaluation and acquisition  of novel and emerging future technology worldwide as they specifically relate to spacecraft. BAASS is headquartered in Las Vegas, Nevada. We are seeking experienced scientists to join our research teams. If you are an inquisitive outside of the circle thinker, who is detail oriented and who is looking for a challenge, this is a unique and exciting opportunity to advance your career, and to be a part of cutting edge research.

Numerous positions available in various fields.

Impressive candidates will need to have 10 or more years of research and hands on experience in the disciplines relating to aerospace science, specifically including:

* Astrophysics

* Biochemistry

* Microbiology

* Nanotechnologies

* Physics

* Propulsion

* Stealth technologies

* The Engineering disciplines.

Several positions are also available for research scientists in the disciplines of:

* Biological Cognitive Information

* Electromagnetic fields

* Forensic Pathology

* Psychology

* Social Psychology

* Sociology

A Masters or PhD in a relevant field is a plus. Candidates must qualify for secret or top secret clearances and must be willing to submit to a thorough background check.

For all positions, some travel - both nationally and internationally - may be required."

What were their duties?

I will present the information from the profiles of various individuals on their LinkedIn pages, and decided to produce this in chronological order, so that one may view the progression of those employed. Apart from those already publicly identified; I will not be using the names of other individuals.

A former Marine Corps Senior Officer, Douglas Kurth, joined BAASS before BAASS was even registered with the State of Nevada in January 2008; and nine months before the DIA AASWAP contract was awarded to BAASS. Kurth was a witness to the 2004 Tic Tac event. On LinkedIn, Kurth wrote:

" Program Manager

* Program Lead - novel and emerging space technologies targeting operational deployment in 2040

* Directed and managed a team of 40 scientists, engineers, analysts, and researchers

* Business Development - initiated, developed and directed critical collaborative contract

* Tasked with international marketing of Bigelow Aerospace Private Space Station

* Technical expert on advanced aerospace concepts and aerodynamics."


The "Deputy Administrator" for BAASS was Colm Kelleher, who had worked with Robert Bigelow at the National Institute for Discovery Science (NIDS). Kelleher stated his BAASS roles as:

" * Interviewed, hired and trained a team of 50 scientists, engineers, analysts, and created the classified security infrastructure for an IC contract to study proprietary advanced aerospace technology and threat analysis

* Briefed government department undersecretary and senior United States Senators on threat analysis and advanced technology programs

* Worked closely with IC to develop and execute multiple programs involving advanced aerospace technology including, negotiating and executing multi-disciplinary subcontracts for database creation, physics and engineering analysis and medical science studies

* Lead in the creation of all scientific programs and strategic indicators for the company

* Interfaced with Congressional staff, political consultants, Washington DC think tank and other organizations in the furtherance of company goals

* COMSEC Custodian and Facility Security Officer for IC latter contract period."

September 2008

An individual on LinkedIn shows "BAASS Facility Protection - SCIF/DoD contractor" but no further details of his role.

My comment:

According to paragraph 5.1 of the DIA AASWAP Solicitation, "Contractor shall provide a work facility (including unclassified information systems) with a Top Secret Facility clearance granted by the Defense Security Service."

November 2008

A male individual was hired as an "Investigator/Security Officer." The role is shown as "Investigated paranormal activity, performed physical and information security function."

My comment:

This is the only time I found the words "Investigated paranormal activity" on any BAASS related LinkedIn profile.

January 2009 

a. A female individual was employed as an "Office Manager, EA to Administrator." 

My comment:

We know that Colm Kelleher was the BAASS Deputy Administrator. Who was the BAASS Administrator?

b. A role described as "Provide direction and supervision to a squad of cleared professional investigators tasked with conducting investigations into threats against national security," was titled "Senior Investigator, Team Leader" and filled by a male individual.

c. "Classified investigations" was the role description given by a male individual employed for "Field investigations."

d. "Senior scientist Microbiology" was the title of a role whose duties were described as:

"Lead biological senior scientist for BAASS. The primary duties involve responsibility for the development of laboratory capabilities for the evaluation of novel aerospace technologies including novel materials and propulsion systems for possible detrimental effects on humans and the environment. Additional duties involve the development of research protocols and techniques in support of ongoing research projects and oversight of daily science operations which includes supervision of BAASS technicians. The project required employees to obtain government security clearances which preclude precise discussion of objectives."

My comment:

The March-May 2010 issue of the Newsletter of the Harry Reid Center for Environmental Studies, at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas,  carried a short piece as follows:

"The Nuclear Materials Group (lead: Dr Thomas Hartmann) has established a formal collaboration with Bigelow Aerospace Advanced Space Studies (BAASS). The collaboration provides analytical assistance to BAASS for characterizing solid phases and precipitates."

e. Another individual's job title was "Research Analyst - French translator," and who listed his duties as:

"Started the translation department to develop accurate procedure to analyze and process data translation from French to English. Worked directly with BAASS investigators, program manager and sponsors to develop translator specifications for special data. Received security clearance from DoD."

My comment:

I can understand the need for translators for other than English language material, but why specifically French? Perhaps preparing an English language version of French Government databases?

March 2009

A female "Senior Data Analyst" listed her role as "Database developer, tableau evaluation & reports."

April 2009

a. A male "Research Analyst" was hired, but did not provide details of his role.

b. A "Senior Engineer/Physicist" was engaged, but no role details are given.

May 2009

Another male field investigator was employed who stated:

"Working through Department of Defense contractor, facilitated/directed security/field operations at Bigelow Aerospace Advanced Space Studies (BAASS) under Top Secret SSBI security clearance. Managed contract associated with other government or associated  (classified) agencies.

Managed a team of Investigators, Mechanical, Electrical and Nuclear Engineers who were responsible for the design, development and maintenance of specialized equipment of a classified and clandestine nature."

June 2009

a. Yet another male, "Investigator" was hired and gave their role as "Conducted classified investigations."

b. A female "Research scientist/Engineer" was employed.  No role details given.

July 2009

"Classified research" was her role, as described by a female "Research scientist."

August 2009

a. Yet another male "Investigator" was employed.

b. The role of the next male individual was:

"* Worked in a interdisciplinary team of scientists and engineers studying advanced aerospace weapon system applications including lift, propulsion, control, power generation, signature reduction, materials and armament. Further tasks included:

* Develop company research topics requiring ANSYS FEA collection and carry out research within the fields of aerodynamics, heat transfer, stress analysis and chemical reaction

* Perform field measurement collecting data regarding ionizing radiation as well as performing chemical/metal/soil and spectrum analysis across the United States in accordance with the code of federal regulations, ANSI, IEEE and ASTM standards in EPA, USGS, DoE and DoD procedures

* Responsible for training engineers/scientists teams on proper use of equipment safety procedure guidelines

* Responsible for compiling, formatting and ensuring technical accuracy of completed scientific analysis reports."

March 2010

BAASS engaged a male "Equipment Manager/Lead Investigator," who advised that they:

"* Managed investigative and scientific efforts involved in the highest profile case in the company. Managed contract associated with other government or associated (classified) agencies.

* Managed a team of Mechanical, Electrical and Nuclear Engineers who were responsible for the design, development and maintenance of specialized equipment of a classified nature

* Completed technical reports and proposals and created quality assurance procedures for field work, operations and troubleshooting of equipment

* Managed the procurement of a wide range of electrical, materials, thermal night vision equipment and detectors for the purpose of completing interdisciplinary experiments and/or gathering of necessary quality guidelines affecting scientific data."

September 2010

Two males, Chris Bartel and Chris Marx, were employed as security officers based at Bigelow's NE Utah ranch. [Source: Interview with both men on "UFO Classified" hosted by Erika Lukes, Late 2019.]

When did these contracts cease?

By my count, 14 positions ended in the months between May and August 2010.

In summary

The details of around 20 of the 40-50 BAASS personnel (as found on the LinkedIn website) have been provided. Where know, the duties of these individuals has been described.

It is clear that many of the BAASS personnel describe work, that is consistent with the DIA AAWSAP contract which went to BAASS.

Did BAASS work on UAP as well?

1. During the period April 2009 to January 2010 we know that MUFON via its STAR group were indeed sending UAP reports to BAASS.

2. The open literature, reports that BAASS employee Gary Hernandez was investigating UAP reports.

3. The US Federal Aviation Authority (FAA) were referring UAP reports to BASS during the period 2009 to 2012. 

4. A BAASS Investigator/Security Officer wrote that he "Investigated paranormal activity." Plus two security officers employed by BAASS in September 2010, did tours of duty at Robert Bigelow's NE Utah range, where a range of paranormal activity was described by these two employees. 

5. One August 2009 employee in his list of duties, speaks of "Perform field measurements collecting data regarding ionizing radiation as well as performing chemical/metal/soil and spectrum analysis across the United States..."

This work could be argued to be that of researching physical trace evidence associated with UAP.

6. Lastly, but most importantly, former Senator Harry Reid, who instigated the AATIP/AAWSAP says that AATIP studied UFOs. In a tweet dated 8 December 2019, Las Vegas journalist George Knapp cited former Senator Harry Reid as recently stating:

"AATIP was my program. One can say whatever, but the truth is it was for only one purpose - to study UFOs."

7. Based on the above, I can see two possibilities. Either BAASS was simultaneously running with the AAWSAP contract, and also conducting its own UAP investigations; or the AAWSAP work did indeed involve researching UAP. On the basis of what I have learned, I suggest that the latter is true, which is contrary to recent statements from Pentagon spokesperson Susan L Gough. 

Monday, December 23, 2019

NIDS and "triangular" UAP


I am continuing my exploration of material which appeared on the former website of the now defunct National Institute for Discovery Science (NIDS,) founded by Las Vegas businessman Robert T Bigelow, in 1995 and ceasing in 2004. Most researchers that I know, are completely unaware of this resource.


One of the two foci of NIDS was research into the UFO phenomenon. There was an upsurge in the number of reports of "triangular" shaped objects in the 1990's. Thus it was reasonable that NIDS would take a look into this aspect of the phenomenon. Looking at the former NIDS website, I found a number of relevant articles:

1. "Port Washington, Wisconsin UFO Sighting Illustration"

* There was an observation in October 1998

* Of an object estimated to be 200 by 250 feet in size

* At about 500 feet altitude

* Triangular shaped

* A model was constructed and photographs taken of it, shown in the article.

* 20 page report dated April 2001

* In late 1999 NIDS established a 24 hour UFO reporting hot line

* In 14 months NIDS received 127 reports of triangular objects. 60% of reports were dated between January 1999 and April 2001

* Flying at low or very low altitude

* "Huge" or "large" in size

* Mostly silent

* Hovering or flying at less than 100mph

* Very brightly lit

* The description of "triangular" included wedge shaped, boomerang shaped; pentagon; isosceles and equilateral triangular shaped

* The report discusses the possibility of the objects being US military aircraft

* In an addendum, is an analysis of sighting location versus the location of USAF bases

* "The totality of the evidence leads us to hypothesize that the flight paths are suggestive of the deployment of military aircraft hitherto unacknowledged."

3. "Comparison of Unidentified Triangular or Deltoid Aircraft Location Patterns in Three Independent UFO Databases: NIDS, MUFON and Larry Hatch"

* 8 page report dated June 2001

* In April 2001 a report (see 2 above): "NIDS found an interesting scatter of triangular object sighting locations around air corridors between AFMC and AMC bases. In the latter report we pointed out a gap in the part of the United States encompassing the plains states from which both triangular object sightings and AMC/AFMC bases were absent."

* "NIDS obtained the data on over 450 additional sightings from MUFON and Larry Hatch." The broad trends seen in the NIDS data were also present in the MUFON and Hatch data

* "We hypothesize that the United States Air Force has been flying large triangular or deltoid shaped aircraft between AFMC and AMC bases."

4. "Hypothesis: The Illinois Flying Triangles a Department of Defense, Not An ET Craft"

* 8 page report dated July 2002

* NIDS was approached by an aircraft designer re the possibility of the objects being a large, lighter than air object using an electrokinetic drive

* In this paper, that designer responds to the characteristics of the objects as listed by NIDS.

5. "Black Triangle Sighting Report-August 2002"

* Case report from San Jose, California on 28 August 2002

* Black triangle following an aircraft.

6. "NIDS Investigation of the Flying Triangle Enigma"

* Report dated August 2004

* NIDS started investigating reports of triangles

* Between 2000 and 2004 NIDS received hundreds of such reports from USA and Canada

* In mid 2004 NIDS reviewed its database: "We find the sightings of Triangles appear primarily adjacent to population centers and along Interstate Highways"

* A map provides visual details of the locations

* MUFON provided NIDS with the MUFON triangle sightings data in early 2004

* Also, in early 2004, Larry Hatch's triangles database (1990-2003) was made available to NIDS

* NIDS then mapped the combined data

* "The major finding of this report is that the behaviour of the Flying Triangles, as related by hundreds of eyewitnesses, does not appear consistent with the covert deployment of an advanced DoD aircraft. Rather it is consistent with the routine and open deployment of an (unacknowledged) advanced DoD aircraft, or (b) the routine and open deployment of an aircraft owned and operated by non DoD personnel"

* The report also looks at flying triangle reports in Belgium, Britain; the 1982-1986 boomerangs of New York and Connecticut.

My comment:

As with my previous post on NIDS and animal mutilations, I present the above summaries and links to the former NIDS website, for anyone who may not have previously read this detailed NIDS research material.

Thursday, December 19, 2019

Mellon, Scheussler, NIDS and the US DoD


I only recently caught up with an article dated 2 November 2019, titled "The Navy acknowledges UFOs - so why aren't they on Washington's radar?" It was written by To The Stars Academy of Arts & Science (TTSA) advisor, Christopher Mellon. In the article, Mellon poses a series of questions, of which perhaps the most important, is:

"Why are we not analyzing the vast quantities of data already collected by America's vast sensor network, already bought and paid for, to see what light that data might shed on the issue?"

On 12 November 2019, this point was taken up in a post on the TTSA website in another piece by Mellon, titled "Potential Sources of Information Regarding Unidentified Aerial Phenomenon."

Mellon identified a number of US military and intelligence collection systems, including:

1. The Global Infra sound Acoustic Monitoring Network.

2. The US Space Surveillance Network.

* DARPA Space Surveillance Telescope,

* GEODSS Space Surveillance System,

* The space-based geosynchronous space-based Situational Awareness Program,

* The US Navy's sea-based X-band radar system.

3. The space-based Infrared System.

4. Active Electronically Scanned Army Radar.

5. US Navy Aegis radar.

6. The FAA/NORAD Joint Surveillance System.

Mellon goes on to list a number of known databases, including:

1. NORAD - "Unknown Track Reporting Database" and/or "Unknown track Reporting System."

2. Air Traffic Controllers - "Tracks of interest."

3. OPREP-3 reports - reporting "urgent" and "ongoing" events.

My comments:

For more on OPREP-3 reports, and further information on NORAD's systems, I recommend reading the relevant posts on Melbourne based researcher, Paul Dean's blog.


As I was musing on the material written by Mellon, I was continuing to look through the items on the former website of the National Institute for Discovery Science (NIDS.) I was intrigued to note an article, on the NIDS website,  written by US researcher John Scheussler, titled "Unconventional Flying Objects (UFOs): Why the Mystery Isn't Solved," dated 2002, 17 years prior to the Mellon items.

Scheussler, who at one stage was on the NIDS Science Advisory Board (SAB,) started off the article by writing "I believe that a big part of the problem lies in the fact that UFO investigators are always backward looking."

He provided a list of known data points about the phenomenon, such as where they are seen; their characteristics and behaviours. Looking ahead, he noted:

"All the while, various government agencies were using all sorts of advanced technologies for intelligence gathering purposes..."

His list of such technologies, mirrors that provided by Mellon, and included thermal infrared imaging; acoustic detectors; USAF Space Command SPACETRACK system; ground-based electro-optical deep space surveillance system, and NORAD's uncorrelated targets. The entire article, linked above (PDF copy) is well worth a read in the light of Mellon's two later, 2019, articles.

Return to 2019

Ryan Graves, one of the US Navy pilots with knowledge of the 2014/2015 East coast of the USA, incidents, appeared on the Kevin Rose show on 3 December 2019. During the course of the interview Rose asked Graves "What can we do to study these objects? Part of Graves' response was that the DoD needs to work on it. Also, he said that it needs someone high enough in the DoD to reach into places like NORAD, the FAA, and the US Navy to secure data.

Tuesday, December 17, 2019

NIDS investigated the reported shooting of a non-human entity - Fort Dix/McGuire AFB, 18 January 1978 - the NIDS investigation

The incident

A search for information about the alleged shooting of an "alien" on 18 January 1978, at the Fort Dix/McGuire Air Force Base in New Jersey, USA, ultimately leads back to Leonard Stringfield's 1985 work, "The Fatal Encounter at Ft. Dix - McGuire: A Case Study: Status Report IV."

On 23 September 1980, Stringfield received a letter from an individual whom he named "Sergeant Jeffrey Morse." Irregular correspondence was exchanged. On 27 September 1983, Morse advised "I have been warned, threatened, and I have been personally interrogated as recently as February 1983, in reference to the subject..."

On 6 December 1983, Stringfield spoke to Morse by phone. A further call supplied Stringfield with the names and ranks of the officers were were his interrogators at Wright Patterson. On 23 December 1983, Morse supplied a xeroxed copy of an Incident/Complaint Report form 1569. This gave the same story as Morse did, and also the names of those involved.

However, Stringfield later notes that: "Other than the Incident/Complaint Report which provided names, no other person has responded to Morse's request for back up testimony."

On 13 January 1985, Morse met UFO researcher Richard Hall. Hall concluded "I detected nothing in his manner, or story to cause skepticism."

Finally, in his report, Stringfield concluded " Morse never once stated to me that the entity he saw, despite its alien anatomy, was of extraterrestrial origin..."

Enter the National Institute for Discovery Science

A five page report by NIDS investigator Roger Pinson, on the former website of the now defunct NIDS, advises that NIDS employee Colm Kelleher met an individual named Jerry Rolwes; and that on 18 July 2000 Kelleher requested Pinson to conduct a review of the case brought up by Rolwes, namely the Fort Dix/McGuire AFB "shooting."

Amongst other things, Pinson's report notes that he:

1. Found that Stringfield had been advised on 1 January 1985, that all DD forms 1569 for the location and period involved, had been destroyed.

2. Located and interviewed "...the former commander of a McGuire AFB squadron." In fact he was the only squadron commander on the base. This individual had been at the base on 18 January 1978. He denied any knowledge of the incident.

3. Spoke to a "...former McGuire AFB, AFOSI Commander, at the base in the 1980/81 time frame. This person had never heard of the incident.

4. Located an interviewed another former McGuire AFB AFOSI commander. This man was at McGuire in 1978. He said "...he never heard of anything remotely resembling a UFO sighting or shooting incident involving an alien while he was at McGuire."

5. Heard from a Captain Denise Waggoner of the 108th Air National Guard, who advised that she had interviewed a Sergeant Morse of the 438th Security Forces, "...who told her that he remembered no such incident occurring in 1978."

6. Found that the name of the Fort Dix MP who allegedly shot the alien, was given as "John Samuels." Pinson located phone numbers for 67 John Samuels in the USA. He called all 67, contacted 42, but none were the individual sought.

7. Spoke to former Colonel Landon, former base commander of McGuire in 1978, whose name was mentioned on the DD1569. Landon stated that there was no such incident.

Pinson's report concluded:

"The four main people on the base in 1978 who should have known of a UFO sighting were interviewed. None of them claim to know anything about the alleged sighting or alien close encounter."

Further website details

The abstract about the incident on the NIDS website includes:

1. NIDS consulted a retired senior member of the 438th Security Police Squadron about the DD1569 form. "Seven separate discrepancies were found on the DD form1569 by the senior security police officer. These discrepancies led to his opinion that the DD form1569 in question did not describe a real incident and was probably a forgery."

2. Morse claimed that he was interrogated at Wright Patterson AFB by an individual.Morse gave his rank and name. NIDS located this man and interviewed him. This man advised he was associated with JAG at McGuire AFB at the time. "...but (a) he had never heard of the incident, (b) he had never been to WPAFB at any time in his life, and (c) he had no knowledge of any interrogation of Morse."

3. NIDS confirmed that a Jeffrey Norse had worked as an E4 at McGuire AFB, but were unsuccessful in locating him.

4. "NIDS working hypothesis...is that the 1978 McGuire AFB incident did not happen."

Read the investigation reports for yourself

On the NIDS website you can find:


1. The Fort Dix/McGuire AFB incident is recounted in the  2019 book by John L Guerra titled "Strange Craft: The True Story Of an Air Force Intelligence Officers's Life with UFOs." According to numerous internet sources dated September 2019, e.g. click here, retired Air Force Major George Filer III says, although he never saw the alien, he was on the base at the time and saw the emergency response as a result of the incident. Filer spoke to a Seargent who told him an alien had been shot and killed.

2. The NICAP website, click here for link, has a case report on the incident. 

Monday, December 16, 2019

NIDS, Robert Bigelow and animal mutilations - 1996 to 2004


Jacques Vallee's 2018 book "Forbidden Science: Volume 4" has given us many insights into a variety of sub-topics concerning the UFO phenomenon and the paranormal. I have already published a number of posts on this blog, based on material gleaned from Vallee's book. In this post I'd like to explore another sub-topic; so called "animal mutilations." I haven't written about this topic on this blog before, as it was not an area which particularly attracted my interest.


However, recently, I have been spending some time looking at the available literature concerning Robert Bigelow's National Institute for Discovery Science (NIDS - founded in October 1995.) One of the subject areas which NIDS investigated, was animal mutilations.  So, as a matter of public record, I have decided to document what I found in my literature search, for those blog readers who may have an interest in this area.

Vallee's book

Jacques Vallee was a member of the NIDS Science Advisory Board (SAB) from its inception, and documents a number of notes about NIDS and animal mutilations. I quote from his book:

Diary entry dated: 27 August 1995 (page 263)

"Bigelow...He's about to fly to Saskatchewan to investigate a case of multiple cattle mutilations."

1 October 1995 (p266)

"Bob has just come back from Saskatchewan where a man, his wife, and their three sons reported seeing a craft and short beings. It hovered for 20 minutes above the tree line.

"We took plant samples," he told me. "The grass had died. A cow's rectum and sex organs were removed; a one-foot diameter circle had been cut in the animal. The cut left a charred substance, almost no blood."

"What happened to the object? What did it look like?" I asked.

"It made a sound of an arc welder, 200 yards away, they said. They saw some silhouettes, small people; the witnesses called out. "Whatddya want?" The beings reacted with excitement, they scurried around, and the craft took off."

"The farmer had no insurance. The RCMP took pictures but they didn't bother to ask any questions."

31 March 1996 (p300)

"...Bigelow has an interest in Puerto Rico where he has sent a scout, Chad Deetken, researching crop circles and mutilations. He's also gotten veterinarians to report cases gathered by the American Association of Bovine Practitioners, who will poll their members. He has agreements with the US Department of Agriculture pathology lab and the College of Animal pathologists in Irvine."

4 August 1996 (p323)

Recent additions to NIDS staffing. "Finally, microbiologist and veterinarian George Onet, a PhD from Romania who has spent the last ten years in the U.S., brings field and laboratory experience."

"In addition to the permanent staff...a person in Canada studying cattle mutilations..."

15 August 1996 (pp326-7)

"...another, even more interesting situation had popped up...a ranch in Utah where cattle mutilations, strange lights and bizarre objects were being reported "almost daily"...They...have had three animals mutilated, one of which was seen fifteen minutes before...With us was Dr George Onet, the Romanian veterinarian recruited by NIDS to study mutilations...disappearance of eleven cows, three of which were later found mutilated, with holes punched into an eye and the rectum cleanly cored out. We walked over to one of the cows still lying among the bushes with no sign of putrefaction. The Shermans had noted a "dank, musky, medicinal smell" for two days after the event, and found a gelatinous substance on the side of the animal, none of which they preserved, however...As in other mutilation reports I have studied, predators stayed away, there were no agonal movements, and other cattle also avoided the carcass."

11 January 1997 (p349)

"George Onet reported back on his questionnaires to ranchers. Dozens came back with some mutilation incidents, but in no case had a veterinarian been called. George estimates about 2,000 cases are reported every year in the US, so he will try and involve bovine practitioners in his study.

9 February 1997 (p356)

"At NIDS Bigelow has hired Gabe Valdez, a retired New Mexico State Police Officer who has researched cattle mutilations for years."

9 March 1997 (p359)

"Through the Institute, Bob Bigelow is channeling money to...(7) the cattle mutilation survey conducted by George Onet…"

9 March 1997 (p360)

"Progress has been made in the mutilation study. George has followed up on a case reported by Gabe Valdez, a cow mutilated near Taos on February 22nd. He was on the scene three days later performing a necropsy and taking samples. For the first couple of days a strong smell of battery acid came from the carcass. An animal control officer at the scene suffered from coughing and loss of sensation in the lower jaw. This points to a terrestrial agent, not E.T."

13 April 1997 (p366)

"This evening Mr Bigelow called...We went on to talk about recent events at the Utah ranch. They began with the mutilation of a new born calf..."

My comment:

1. See NIDS website item 2 (below.)

2. In their 2005 book "Hunt for the Skinwalker" NIDS employee Colm Kelleher, and journalist George Knapp (Paraview, New York) provide much detail about Bigelow's Utah ranch and the various activities which were reported to have occurred there. These included reports of cattle mutilations. Pages 79-85 provide a first hand report by Kelleher of being called to the ranch on 10 March 1997.

"The combination of overwhelming force in ripping the calf apart and dainty precision in laying the body on the grass seemed all wrong. It disturbed me....It was if a great vacuum cleaner had gone through, in, and around the calf's carcass  and sucked up every drop of its blood...We videotaped the crime scene and scanned the animal and the surrounding ground for magnetic and electric traces, for radio/microwave residue, and for the hell of it, for nuclear radiation." (p.81)

"The ear was cut off with a knife or scalpel." (p.82.)

"...we returned to the science observation trailer, less than a hundred yards from where the animal had been torn apart..." (p.83.)

2 May 1977 (p367)

NIDS meeting. "The evening session was devoted to cattle mutilations. Bob had invited Lou Gerardo, Sheriff of Los Alamos county in New Mexico, who has studied cases since 1973 in Trinidad County, the largest county in Colorado; Edmund Gomez of the New Mexico Agricultural Department, who holds a degree in animal science, has suffered 23 cattle mutilations and lost one horse; Gabe Valdez is stationed in Dulce; and Henry Valdez, no relation to Gabe, serves as District Attorney for Rio Arroba County in Los Alamos.

Gabe was the most verbose of the group, discussing case after case of well documented mutilations. Lou Gerardo was the most impressive, concise and clear. Gabe Valdez appeared convinced that the objects responsible the incidents flew in and out of Dulce.

We heard clear statements of how predators of every conceivable species operate (mountain lions and bears grab at the neck, dogs go for the back legs) and the major characteristics of mutilations as opposed to death by illness and other natural causes. Another aspect of the phenomenon that has become clear is its human origin. Carcasses have suffered injuries and traction by clamps, or other devices. It is common for the animal to be dropped, sometimes from considerable height. Also common is the sighting of helicopters. I asked about the earliest cases they could recall: unanimously, they said it went back to the early 40's."

3 May 1997 (p368)

Utah ranch. "The sequence of recent events was as follows: the calf mutilation on 10 March at 10am...the calf incident isn't a classic mutilation. The bones show both teeth marks and two cutting instruments, according to the forensic pathologists who examined the remains. There was chewing on the hide, but the ribs were gone, the entrails were gone, all the blood was gone, the whole thing in 45 minutes..."

My comment: See NIDS website item 2 (below.)

19 July 1997 (p377)

"After sending out 1131 questionnaires George Onet had obtained 160 responses from Utah ranches, including sixteen mutilation reports, all bovine. Most occurred on ranches over 100 acres, with more than 20 animals. All the incidents took place in the warmer months."

10 January 1999 (p440)

NIDS meeting. "Much of the time yesterday was spent discussing cattle mutilations. There have been many incidents in the Uintah Basin over the years. They continue:16 carcasses have been found, all pointing north."

Re the Utah ranch. "The main incident is a mutilation involving a three year old Hereford that was alive on 15 October. It was dead the next day and the local vet did a necropsy on the 17th. The left eye was missing, the left ear cut. Again a blue gel substance was found smeared on the eye area and the anus...Peter Pickup and Terry Sherman were on site three hours later, after the call, approximately 15 hours after the death.

They found a standard 2mm hole in the brisket area over the sternum going only through the tissue, and internal hemorrhage at the neck.

Consulted by phone, Kit said some new embalming fluids or gels meet the description and he suggested element analysis, which was done. Tests revealed killing by potassium chloride. Dr Whinnery said it was standard procedure at his lab for putting pigs to death, an injection in the ear. Perhaps that was why the ear was removed?

"Potassium Chloride is used by Dr Kevorkian with his terminal patients," he said "It causes the heart to freeze; it stops muscles from performing. An animal dies in 5 to 8 seconds: a few heart beats, then nervous system collapse. In pigs the injection can be made easily through the plexus of the eye."

"And in bovines?" I asked.

"You'd probably use the jugular vein. In cows you can't use interocular injection."

Bob argued these were theatrics for our benefit."

My comment: See NIDS website item 3 (below.)

31 October 1999 (p475)

"There was another mutilation on the Utah ranch at the end of September. A calf that had disappeared was found again; its internal organs scattered around in an area that had been thoroughly inspected over the previous two days. The liver showed a marked absence of copper.

This is the sixth case that George Onet has documented in the area with hypocuprosis in animals that suffered neither from malfunction nor disease. The mystery keeps getting deeper."

The former NIDS website

Using the Way Back machine website, I located some relevant reports on the now defunct NIDS website. These were:

* 24 page report
* NIDS was allowed full access to Captain Wolverton's original papers and files from that era
* Investigations into 192 UFO/unknown helicopter sightings
* 67 reports of animal mutilations, most within 40 mile radius of Malmstrom Air Force Base
* MS Excel spreadsheet of data is provided.

* 16 page report
* Parts removed using techniques not conforming to "usual" mutilations

(1) 10 March 1997 - remote pasture in NE Utah
* 87lb calf tagged - ranchers then move 300 yards west to second calf to tag it
* Then they return to first calf and find it eviscerated in broad daylight, 100 yards from any cover
* Most of its body weight removed including entrails - no blood present on or near animal
* Two NIDS scientific investigators and vet on scene within five hours
* Sharp instrument had been used to remove ear
* Sharp instruments used on bone
* Experienced tracker checked area -no unusual tracks
* Bone had both teeth marks and metal cuts.

(2) Northern California 10 October 2001
* Black Angus calf
* Most of body weight gone, left eye cored
* Chest cut in oval pattern
* No blood or unusual tracks.

(3) Northern California 29 December 2001
* Seven month old premature Charolais calf
* Testicles cut off
* No blood
* Family woken up by sound of helicopter.

By Colm Kelleher, George Onet and Eric W Davis.
* Three year old registered Hereford cow
* Seen alive 15 October 1998
* Left eye, left ear removed
* Necropsy conducted
* No struggle, no unusual tracks found
* Blood had high levels potassium chloride
* Low level of copper in liver.

* 8 page report by George Onet
* Four dead calves - Milican valley, NW of Brothers, Oregon
* Next day, eight more dead calves found in same area
* Eight partially skinned and reproductive organs missing
* No vehicle tracks, footprints or blood found
* Case remains open.

* 48 page report dated January 2002
* Six year old red Angus cow found dead 27 June 2001
* Last seen alive two days before
* Left eye, left eyelid, parts of tongue, vagina, rectum missing
* No unusual tracks, markings or sign of a struggle
* NIDS arranged for inspection by forensic expert
* If mutilated, mutilation occurred after death
* Seems Oxindole was used to sedate animal.

* 20 page report
* Brain tissue analysed
* Oxindole found in mutilated animal but not in brain of a control animal.

* Found dead 30 October 2001
* Nine month old Red Angus crossbreed
* Cache County deputy sheriff investigated and provided report to NIDS
* Local veterinarian engaged to conduct necropsy
* Scrotum and penis cut off. No loss of blood
* No signs of struggle, not tire tracks and no footprints
* Samples shipped to Frontier Analysis and GCMS sub-contractor Richard L Wilson.

* 5 page report
* Two registered Simintal cows and bull calk last seen alive 13.5 hours previously - dead 5 April
* Vet conducted necropsy
* Abnormal rate of decomposition
* Sharp instrument used to remove parts of animals
* 7 April - cow found dead
* Vet conducted necropsy
* Knife marks found
* Fresh vehicle tracks and three sets of footprints found.

* 1 page report
* Near Wyoming/Idaho border
* Vagina, tats removed. Blood on neck around jugular
* Investigation - pending.

* 33 page report
* Dated July 2002
* In last six years multiple reports of unidentified aircraft and helicopter activity that appear to correlate with an animal mutilation
* Call about two sets of animal injuries Feb to Jul 2001
* Also historical events 1975-1976.

* 16 page report
* By George Onet and Colm Kelleher
* Reporting on experiments to simulate microwave radiation; high heat and cautery on cattle skin and tissue
* Documentation of these effects for comparison with "mutilated" samples.

* 15 page report
* By George E Onet and Colm Kelleher
* Photographic database of changes that accompany cattle hide.

* 10 page report by George Onet
* 20 May 2000 report - 18 miles north of Cuba, New Mexico
* Charolais cow - both ears missing, severe upper lip lacerations
* 22 May 2000 - Local vet and NIDS on scene
* Nothing unusual found at the site.

13. "General Guidelines and Check list for Scene Investigation in Animal Mutilation Cases"

* A two page checklist.

14. "Necropsy Protocol in Animal Mutilation Cases"

15. "Sample Collection Protocol for Unexplained Animal Deaths"

16. "Animal Mutilations What We Know"

* Report by George Onet

* Reported worldwide since early 1960's

* In USA found in most states

* Estimated US cases near 2000

* No person has ever been arrested in connection with a mutilated animal incident

* Sudden death of animal

* Missing body parts

* Many cases - tissues removed by surgical precision

* No relevant tracks found

* No signs of ante-mortem struggle

* Lack of blood in surrounding area.

17. "Animal Mutilations What We Don't Know"

* Report by George Onet

* What caused the deaths?

* Where did the missing body parts go?

* Was the blood removed by artificial means?

* What causes domestic and wild animals to avoid mutilated animals?

* What cases the disappearance of some animals?

18. "Results of a Survey Among Bovine Practitioners Concerning Animal Mutilations"

19. "Hazard Notfiication in Animal Mutilation Cases"

20. "Survey Results: Results of a Survey of Ranchers Concerning Unexplained Animal Deaths"

Frontier Analysis Limited

I then thought to check the available online copies of "Technical Service Responses" of  Frontier Analysis Limited to see if there were any ones which originated with a request from NIDS. I found three such requests, outlined below:

1. Technical Service Response No: UT016 referred to "Analysis of Samples from a Cow Mutilated June 27, 2001 (Conrad, Montana.)"

* Report dated 10 December 2001
* Requested by Colm Kelleher, NIDS
* This seems to refer to NIDS item 5 above
* One unusual compound found was Oxindole, a decomposition product if Tryptophan - a powerful sedative.

2. Technical Service Response No: UT023 referred to "Analysis of Samples from a Cow Mutilated in the fall of 2001."

* Report dated 13 May 2002
* Requested by Colm Kelleher, NIDS
* Comparison between control and mutilated - difference in phenolic type materials
* Trace amount of Oxindole in mutilated animal - by product of natural biological compounds.

* Report dated April 7, 2003
* Requested by Colm Kelleher, NIDS
* This report refers to the NIDS item 7 above
* Analytical results do not conform the presence of an unusual substance
* No Oxindole reported.

Overall comments

I have never really conducted an in-depth review of material relating to the topic of "animal mutilations." I have read such works as Linda Moulton Howe's 1989 work, "An Alien Harvest," and naturally, in the course of research into UAP, come across numerous references to the topic. So, it was very refreshing to be able to read comprehensive NIDS documentation on this subject. These items provide excellent, scientific research material.

Update 21 December 2019

A Canadian correspondent, has drawn my attention to another NIDS paper, titled "Unexplained Cattle Deaths and the Emergence of a Transmissible Spongiform Encephalopathy (TSE) Epidemic in North America." A PDF copy is to be found here. 

Saturday, December 14, 2019

Clarification given by Pentagon re that AATIP $M10 or $M22?

In my last post, I noted that there was an apparent discrepancy as to the amount of dollars spent on the Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program (AATIP.) Was it US$M10 or US$M22? I now have an answer, which came out of the Pentagon, in May of this year.

Roger Glassel

Swedish researcher Roger Glassel has shared a series of email communications between himself, and Pentagon spokesperson Susan L Gough. Part of that series was one particularly relevant email. I thank Roger for his permission to cite the contents of that email. The email was dated 25 May 2019 and was sent from Gough (Office of the Assistant to the Secretary of Defense for Public Relations) to Roger Glassel, in response to Roger requesting a copy of the statement which the DoD had given to Steven Greenstreet (see Greenstreet's New York Post article dated 22 May 2019.) I quote the email in its entirety.

" The purpose of the Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program (AATIP) was to investigate foreign advanced aerospace weapons system applications with future technology projections over the next 40 years and to create a center of expertise on advanced aerospace technologies. The goal was to help understand the threat posed by unconventional or leap ahead aerospace vehicles/technology that could have national security implications for the United States.

The program commenced in FY2008 with $10 million appropriated in the Defense Supplemental Appropriations Act. DIA awarded a contract to a sole bidder [Bigelow Aerospace Advanced Space Studies, LLC.]

The contract goal was to study 12 technical areas, lift, propulsion, control, armament, signatures reduction, materials, configuration, power generation, temporal translation, human effects, human interface and technology integration.

The contractor identified and worked with academics and scientists to produce technical reports.

The first 26 reports were compiled in late 2008. The FY2010 Defense Appropriations Act (NDAA) included an additional $12 million for the program and 12 additional reports were produced. A total of 38 technical reports were delivered.

After an OSD/DIA review in late 2009, it was determined the reports were of limited value to DIA and there was a recommendation that upon completion of the contract the project could be transited to an agency or component better suited to oversee it. Funding for the program at the DIA ended in 2012 and DoD elected not to continue the program after the work contracted under the FY2010 NDAA was completed."

A comment:

I am not aware of anyone who has found the budget line relevant to the AATIP in either the FY2008 Defense Supplemental Appropriations Act or the FY2010 Defense Appropriations Act. I have spent quite a bit of time looking for this budget line, but have never found it. A challenge for blog readers?

Thursday, December 12, 2019

BAASS - transcript of, and commentary on, a 2008 interview with Robert Bigelow

I have previously published much material on the subject of Bigelow Aerospace Advanced Space Studies (BAASS.) For an index of those article, click here. However, one thing which I had not done, until now, was to listen to a 28 September 2008 Coast2Coast radio interview between Las Vegas journalist George Knapp, and Las Vegas businessman Robert T Bigelow. In this interview, Bigelow himself describes the establishment and mission of BAASS.

After listening to the interview, I decided that due to the amount of interesting information it contains, I would prepare a transcript for those blog readers who like to hear things directly from the source. Here is that transcript, at the end of which I will add some comments of mine.

GK “Let’s transition into the other topic, and I’ll do it this way. The logo of Bigelow Aerospace; you’ve got an alien on it. Your interest in these topics is well known. I’m curious about whether it causes you trouble in aerospace circles, and government circles, when you are dealing with folks from NASA or whether there is a secret level of interest among folks like that? Just as there is in your company.”

BB “It’s the latter. There has never been a conference I’ve attended, or some kind of forum that I’ve been involved in, where the people didn’t want to talk about that subject. They come up to me; they would come up to me after the talk or lecture or whatever, and break into a discussion on that topic. So there is a huge subterranean kind of interest in the science community, of at least the folks who are interested in space and the engineering community. A significant percentage of those people that follow the ET/UFO topic very closely.”

GK “But not publicly?”

BB “But not publicly. That is, that has always been a problem. I think it is because the media has unfortunately made fun of that topic until recent times. I see a little bit of a change in the media’s attitude lately, in the last few years. A little bit on that topic. And then people are concerned for their careers. So there is a sub-rosa type of thing. They do this very quietly and secretly. It’s like walking out with a brown paper; you put something on a brown paper bag coming out of a bar so people don’t see what you have; and it’s that kind of feeling it has; that kind of a stigma to it. But I think it’s changed over the last ten, twenty years that I have been involved with it. I see a significant change for the better that has occurred.”

GK “Well, you’ve done; you’ve initiated some of that change yourself. You founded something called NIDS some years ago. National Institute for Discovery Science. You put together a world class science advisory board. You approached really strange topics as a scientist would; trying to get some answers and we’ll go into some of that work, in a moment, because now you’re ready to take another step. Why don’t you tell us what your announcement is?”

BB “Well, you know we have had fun with the ET topic for years. When someone writes a new book I usually buy about 100 copies and distribute them among our staff on a first come first served bases. It is no secret that I have been a student of this, and a researchers of this topic for many years, and if people take the time and trouble to do the research then you realize just how authentic this topic is, and how real it is, and how phenomenally interesting this topic is. It is the most; I have never, ever, been involved in anything remotely close to this level of fun and mystery as this topic. I mean it is far greater than any kind of business I’ve ever been in; including the aerospace world. And the aerospace business. This topic is, oh, 50 times, perhaps 50 times…”

GK “Hey, you’re preaching to the choir man. When it gets under your skin it’s hard to shake it.”

BB “It really is. You need to keep one foot solidly anchored, you know, in the real world. In the world of whatever it is you’re involved in in life, and then the other foot can dabble into this other strange reality, and it is, when you start to do the research. Almost anybody can come away with a conclusion this is real; this isn’t fantasy. This, this is absolutely true.”

GK “And that’s a fundamental. It’s a given of what your new endeavour is going to be, right?”

BB “Well, the new endeavour has to do with a new company; a sister company to Bigelow Aerospace, and the acronym is BAASS, Bigelow Aerospace Advanced Space Studies. The mission for this company is to pursue exotic, novel technologies. We would like to come across something that levitates for example; or somebody that’s working on something that looks promising.
We have sponsors. We have partners, in this effort. So that’s new for me, and I’m very pleased about that. And these sponsors and partners do not need to be convinced, at all, that this topic is real. So that’s nice also. So, we are going after this is a very serious way. This is intended to be a global effort, not just something for consumption here in the States. But we intend to try to pursue this challenge, wherever we are able to discover something, around the world. So, basically, we’re trying to get away from things that puff smoke and require a combustion in order to provide the locomotion for something, and there are other kinds of characteristics we’re looking for as well. So Bigelow Aerospace is the more practical side to things using conventional kinds of; we don’t use anything that’s an unobtainium., we don’t need that. There’s nothing in our architecture that incorporates the need for some unobtainium. We’re using very ordinary kinds of materials and things to produce an unordinary result. A result that could see a sea change in terms of cost and access to space for humans.

This other company is focused on, what might be seventy five years or a hundred years away, or maybe 50 years away, who knows, in terms of the kind of technologies that we wish we had at our disposal.”

GK “Meaning that something that someone is tinkering away with in their garage, or that some other intelligence has developed. When we come back…A couple of minutes ago you heard my guest Bob Bigelow announce the creation of something called BAASS which is being created in order to uncover, discover, create exotic propulsion technologies that might change life on Earth as we know it.

Bob, this is a sort of a bridge between your two areas of interest. I mean, your spacecraft will need a way to get up into space. You’re not quite sure how that is going to work in the future what the options will be. I suppose this could help. But also, it could shed light on your other interests; other intelligences; ETs, whatever."

BB “Well, if you are making a sincere effort to explore novel technologies, the last thing you want to do is draw a line in the sand and say we will not look beyond here. So, if you are convinced, as I am, that anomalous phenomena exist, in many different ways. You have the validity of UFOs; the validity of ETs being here, then naturally, that’s an area that is not off limits. I mean, you’d be kind of foolish to have these global displays of close encounters of spacecraft manifesting themselves within a few hundred feet of many witnesses. Tens, or hundreds even thousands of witnesses depending on where you want to talk about; which area, and which part of the world; and in what year. You’ve had all these expositions and you’re trying to say to yourself, gee isn’t it real. I’m just going to ignore that these expositions have occurred and somehow all these people are crazy and so on.

You have to go to a ridiculous extent to try and tell yourself this is an area you should pursue. So it’s just the opposite. We understand the validity of the phenomenon. We understand that it’s here. It has been here for a long time.

So, we are intrigued with the behaviour. We admire. We respect and admire the performances of these crafts, so much, that we would just give anything to try and obtain something that would perform and have these kinds of characteristics.”

GK “Give me some kind of timetable. How does it work? You’re going to set up this organization; hire some people, and then what happens?”

BB “Well, that actually the first year is a formative situation. The first years we are going to be hiring a number of people that are; that have diverse backgrounds; that are all experts in a variety of fields. We have to organize offices and office facilities. We are going to initiate contact with a lot of other organizations. We look at BAASS as being a networking facility. So, we’re going to be initiating relationships and contracts with various organizations and people, so we can outreach and network with folks, domestically and overseas.

We will not have a website. It’s not a public organization per se. We don’t really have, we don’t have an entertainment value. There’s no way that we can have a website and stay true to our mission and our sponsors and to the confidentiality that we are probably going to be engaged in. So we just don’t have a venue of that type. It may be difficult for anyone to try to reach us and so on. So, we’re going to be very private.

So, I’m wanting, and interested in speaking about this, so that your listeners can hear from me, what the intent here rather than from some blogger as to what it is we’re all about.
So, the first year is an organizational year, trying to find out who we can work with around the United States, and then overseas, and try to establish a base of operations.”

GK “Well, on one hand you’re going to want input from people out there, whoever they are, who might have some ideas on this. You’re going to have to have some kind of a way for them to get hold of you, right?”

BB “Well, we hope to; we’re going to try to explore working through other organizations first, and see how that goes.”

GK “OK.”

BB “We are going to have field people. We will have a combination of folks who may seldom leave their offices and do an awful lot of research, and other folks who, will travel around the country or around the world; go to other countries where something is happening that looks promising; or someone is doing something that looks promising, or they have information about some performance of a spacecraft that is very novel and unique, and we can sniff down whatever trail we can find.”

GK “So, on the one hand you would be, you’re reaching out to the backyard inventor who’s got a flying saucer in his garage or something like that…”

BB “Yes. Right.”

GK “…and has made a discovery. I mean, these people could be out there.”

BB “Absolutely. It’s possible.”

GK “Would you be, I guess I’m trading on some thin ice here. Wouldn’t it be tempting for people who are in the government, who might have inside information, or have access to technology that many of us suspect has been there for a long time; inviting them to step over a line?”

BB “Well, we are hopeful that we may be able to have a relationship with governments. We’re hopeful that you know, other governments aren’t necessarily as closed as US agencies are. Other governments have been more forthright and open about things. We’ve heard recently about the British releasing files and information. The French are more open and of course Belgium is very famous for how open they were in 89/90 when they had a year and a half of extraordinary encounters and sent a lot of F16s to go chase them; and locked on, and so forth, with the UFOs. With the F16s, but I think we are probably going to process our folks with having clearances so that, if we have an opportunity to engage a government, or engaging a company, that might have information, we can be respected as keeping a confidence, and we would be behaving in a responsible way.

So, this is significantly different, George, than the NIDS operation was. We always did respond and behave responsibly in NIDS. If fact, we were successful in discovering a lot of information and doing what we could on our website, to expose some of that while still keeping things private, that people relied on us to keep private. So, this is an effort that is very serious in trying to make some progress in this area.

As you know, George, there’s probably nothing more difficult, that you could tackle, than this kind of a problem.”

GK “Our friend and colleague Stan Friedman sent me an email as a news story prior to this program beginning that you might find it interesting. There is some kind of conference on the SETI, Search for Extra-terrestrial Intelligence, and is underway in Europe. I guess there was a proposal today, put on the floor, in essence those guys need to study UFO evidence because the possibility just listening to space is missing a tremendously important body of literature and the European SETI folks are much more open to that than the Americans are. The Americans, as you know, those guys don’t want to have anything to do with UFOs.”

BB “I can vouch for that. I was sitting at an AIAA conference last year and Jill Tarter was sitting on my right, and I started to bring up the topic of UFOs. I thought she was going to throw up on my lap. It abruptly shut off like that and she was not receptive at all to discussing it. So, that is the signature of the kind of power; the kind of intimidation again, that this, blankets the whole community with. That’s unfortunate because if we could collectively take it seriously and go after this, and look; take what we see with our own eyes and pursue this; and say my god these things are real. How do they do it?

Where do they; do they have to fabricate something in micro gravity in order to get the strength; in order to get the purity of conductivity through the crystal or nanotube or whatever structure it was, in order to integrate that in a one g environment. Maybe, that’s why. Maybe, there are two kinds of species in the universe. Those that have large robust facilities, both in micro gravity and on a planet to make their advanced technology; and then those like us that essentially have only what we can do on Earth, you know in a one g environment.”

GK “Again, it sort of bridges your two interest. What I’m curious is, if in fact they do have a different attitude among the British and some of the other governments have opened up this technology or their files about the subject. Do you think it’s possible that they have technology over there from a crashed disc, or some other place, and do you in fact, think we have it?”

BB “Here’s the thing. You know a number of the crashes here, are bona fide. We know that. We know Roswell is bona fide. I don’t care what all the other people say. That if you do the research, it’s bona fide. Other crashes are bona fide here as well, as crashes that have occurred overseas; and I think you have done a lot of research yourself, in Russia. You probably have opinions on crashes there as well, so they just haven’t occurred here in the States. So the questions might be, if other folks are working on things, other places, what kind of progress are they making?”

GK “I’m going to have to take a short break… Bob Bigelow, President and Founder of Bigelow Aerospace, just announced a couple of minutes ago on this program that he is creating something new called BAASS to go after and find and locate; develop, exotic propulsion systems, exotic technology, even alien type stuff. You’re digging it because a lot of you are sending in emails. A couple of you even suggested that Bob should run for President. And if you like the guy, I don’t know why you’d condemn him to that sort of job. When we come back, we’ll get more details as to how the new organization will work, and I’ll save a couple of minutes for questions. Stick around.”

GK “Bob, before the break we were talking about the possible existence of these exotic technology in some government vault or something. So, you believe it may very well be there?”

BB “Oh, I do. I definitely do. I think though that probably there’s, there’s quite a diversity of who and where; hardware located around the world. I think it exists in a number of other places; other countries overseas and I think it also is bifurcated between the corporate world, because you can’t; you know, gain access through traditional FOIA efforts and so forth, and through government sources as well. So, it’s a very complex, very serious kind of subject and you can understand why those that do have custody of hardware or information feel so determined to maintain the sanctity and privacy of, and the custody of that information.”

GK “Well, I’ve always suspected that one reason for the cover-up if you want to call it that, is that a lot of people would go to jail if it ever came out that what they did in the lies they’d told and the money they’d spent on this program; the secrecy and keeping it from the public and I think you’re right if that technology exists, there was possibility it was taken out of a government vault, or warehouse and put into a private one as another buffer so we wouldn’t find it.”

BB “I suspect that the threat of incarceration is probably not…”

GK “The main reason?”

BB “I don’t think it is valid any more. That would be an extremely difficult case to try to prosecute. I really don’t think that would be something if I was a prosecuting attorney. I would have a difficult time because it is a catch 22. You know, I’m admitting by the prosecution that this is valid. And I don’t know I would want to be doing that. If I’m trying to argue at the same time, this is just crazy. This stuff doesn’t exist.”

GK “Well, in that case, what is the reason for the cover-up?”

BB “Well, there are a lot of reasons and you can appreciate, I think, when you start to get into this topic. You can kind of feel like the, how patriotic a lot of these folks have been, and I know that doesn’t resonate with a lot of your listeners, but the fact is you’ve a huge responsibility for the possibility of social turmoil. This is a very psychological/sociological issue, and you know, it’s not just events like Katrina that haven’t been handled well by the government. This is a topic that is much, much worse in the potential for how well the information would be digested and I think in some communities, some geographical communities would digest confirmation much better than others.

It’s possible that many other countries wouldn’t have that big of a problem with it, but it’s also possible that the industrialized parts of the world would start to have; especially the military industrial complex folks and when you try to argue that, gee, we can protect our citizenry from whatever. It has always been the experience of mankind that you’re doing it, the threat is coming from another human or group of humans. This is not the same kind of subject.

This is something entirely different. You don’t want people to start to think, gee are these godlike? Do we start to revere these people, in a reverent kind of position? How do we think about interacting or what’s our method of behaviour? If we start to think this is real, no government on Earth could prevent or stop the activities if they wanted to, and no collective group of governments could. What does that do to the psyche of the human race?

How far do we have to advance or how desperate do we have to get to nuclear war among ourselves, before we finally decided hey enough. Maybe this is a good thing. Confirmation would be a good thing. May be if it starts to give us a collectivism as a species. Hey, we are all together in this and we need to start to grow up. We need to behave differently. We need to stop conducting wars. We need to stop spending the money we do on just this kind of activity, and there’s something more to life than just that.”

GK “You and I have spoken privately many times, about the importance of preparing for confirmation. You know, if that day ever comes, we’re not ready for it. There could be substantial…”

BB “Well, I have thought of that. I have bought a fast car, George, so, I’m ready to get the hell out of town if necessary.”

GK “You know what I mean. There could be some substantial upheavals. The people listening to this program think we’re ready. We want to know, but man, the world may not be ready. Plus we don’t know what the ultimate truth is, who they are? Why they’re here? Or what their ultimate goals are? It could be very disturbing information when it comes out.”

BB “It’s a really interesting, very, very, very interesting problem, and I tend to think more, that confirmation wouldn’t be a bad thing. I used to be very much against it, going back 15 or 20 years ago. I was, I thought, oh geez, this isn’t great. Ok, there’s all kind of bad things that could happen. It’s not as though our future is so rosy, as it is, you know. Look at the prominence that Al Gore has reached in the efforts to bring awareness of saving the planet and the environment and that’s a  real; a very real problem; a real issue. We’re very capable of screwing things up big time as a species on this ball called Earth. So, we are very capable of really messing things up and you wonder what have thousands of other societies and species done in history? Did they snuff themselves out before there was a chance for them to survive for long term, or did they finally evolve someway to recognize and embrace advanced intelligences into their life and somehow cope with it?”

GK “I tell you what Bob, let’s talk about how exactly it might work, in this context. Let’s say somebody comes forward with some technology that’s been stashed away. They’ve had it all the time. How would it work? I’m making it in this context we’re talking about confirmation or preparing for confirmation. Could in fact, this proposal of yours, this creation of BAASS, sort of help that along? If somebody comes forward with this technology. I mean you’re a private entity. You could keep it secret. And I can see, right now, the bloggers and the email guys on the Internet would be saying, ha ha, Bob Bigelow, trying to confer the market on ET technology to keep it secret.”

BB “Well, not really. And the reason is that you don’t really know where the technology came from. It could just as well evolve from someone’s garage. Or it could evolve from some of the other countries activity and they didn’t have enough money to bring it forward and they were missing, missing financial assistance. They were missing may be some other scientist’s participation. So, on the face of it, just because BAASS would maybe be able to demonstrate something that levitated a large object; by in itself, wouldn’t lead you down that trail of conclusion.

I think there’s another way that would though. There’s another way that would. I’ve thought about this and you know other countries as we said before, have been much more forthcoming. These would be, there could very well be this scenario. Where there comes a point in time where a number of other countries, and the number would be fewer or less, depending on the magnitude of importance of each of the countries. If they were countries that were very low profile it would take a lot of them. But if they were countries that had international prominence, and really were recognized in the United Nations, so forth, it would take fewer.

So, if you have a number of countries that actually confirmed the existence of ET and I think this is very possible that, it would be the confirmation, not necessarily to be looked at that would emanate from the United States.

But it could just as well emanate from some place overseas, through a group of countries. Could say, you know, we’re open minded than the Americans are; yes, we don’t mind admitting that this is all true. These things are real.

Well, that’s interesting, because then, that starts to migrate outside of that group of countries. People then start to take things more seriously, especially the media. The media is a large influence of power.”

GK “In that sense, I guess BAASS could be a tool in the ultimate confirmation that this is real, if those other governments or individuals contacted you and told you that it’s real. You check it out. I means how would that work? How would that part of it work? Are you telling us now, that you would eventually make it public?”

BB “You know. I don’t think; I don’t think our role, our role isn’t really to think in those terms. I think our role is to…”

GK “Find it?”

BB “Find advanced technology; recognize that the behaviours and performance of UFOs are real. We’ve done the research. We know they are. Other people have, outside the United States, overseas; and so we know it’s real. I, we don’t have an agenda that’s more than that. We’re sticking to trying to discover these kinds of technology. See if we are able to help other people evolve them, and collectively, as a species, hopefully use them.”

GK “Ok. We’ll go to the phones.”


Firstly, it would be useful to provide some context to the above transcript. I will do this by using previously available documentation which relates to BAASS.

1. Nevada state records show that business id NV20081214349, entity number E0056412008-7 named Bigelow Aerospace Advanced Space Studies LLC was filed on 29 January 2008; that is almost eight months before the above Bigelow interview.

2. The Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) put out a solicitation for bids on the Advanced Aerospace Weapon System Applications Program (AAWSAP) on the 18 August 2008.

3. The closing date for bids for the AAWSAP was 5 September 2008.

4. Around 5 September 2008 the DIA  selected BAASS as the successful bidder for the AAWSAP contract.

5. On 28 September 2008 Bigelow announced the establishment of BAASS.

6. According to the DIA AAWSAP solicitation, the contract commenced 29 September 2008.

The BAASS Mission

In describing the mission for BAASS, Bigelow, during the Knapp interview, stated:

"The mission for this company is to pursue exotic, novel technologies." And:

"This other company is focused on what might be, 75 years away, or 100 years away, or maybe 50 years away, who knows, in terms of the kind of technologies that we wish we had at our disposal."

The statement of objectives for the AAWSAP as set out in the solicitation attachment 1, dated 18 July 2008 included:

"The objective of the program is to understand the physics and engineering of these applications as they apply to the foreign threat out to the far term, i.e. from now through the year 2050." It goes on to say "Primary focus is on breakthrough technologies."

The BAASS mission, and the AAWSAP contract appear to have been looking at the same thing, another confirmation that the DIA contract went to BAASS.


Bigelow stated at one point "We have sponsors. We have partners in this effort."

We know that the DIA sponsored BAASS by way of the AAWSAP contract. As part of a Las Vegas KLAS-TV news item about the contract; there appeared as copy of part of a document which appeared to be a completed solicitation/contract document. Section 17a had the name of BAASS; and section 26 showed "Total Award Amount - For Govt. use only $10,000,000.00." Thus indicating that the AAWSAP contract to BAASS was for ten million US dollars. I have screenshots in an earlier post.  This amount is different from the often quoted $M22 for the Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program.


Bigelow stated "The first years we are going to be hiring a number of people that are; that have diverse backgrounds; that are all expert in a variety of fields...we re going to have field people..."

A check, via the Wayback machine, of the September 2008 website for Bigelow Aerospace found that BAASS was advertising for such personnel.  One section of the advertisement read "...focuses on the identification, evaluation, and acquisition of novel and emerging future technologies worldwide as this specifically relates to spacecraft..." When I first read that, I wondered what "spacecraft" was being referred to? Having now listened to the 2008 Bigelow interview it would appear to refer to UFOs.

In conclusion

I found this interview to be extremely useful in putting some more pieces of the BAASS puzzle together. No doubt, blog readers will be able to extract other pieces of data from the interview for themselves. If you do, please share your insights.

Update: 13 December 2019

I received a communication from the Scientific Research of the UFO Phenomenon, Victoria UFO Museum, Entre Rios, Buenos Aires. When translated it read:

"I don't remember the year, but on behalf of BAASS we contacted our team, Mrs Melissa Godoy. She wanted that from Argentina, we would inform about objects falling from the sky, cases of UAPs and power plants and nuclear power plants.

In return we were offered to train our researchers and finance the work. After that, he never communicated again and we received an email from BAASS that she now longer worked. I think it was in that year."

Project Galileo

Project Galileo Or to give it its full name, "The Galileo project for the Systematic Scientific Search for Evidence of Extraterrestrial...