Monday, October 23, 2023

Lacatski's new book and podcast interview

Lacatski et al

Courtesy Amazon Books

"Inside the US Government Covert UFO Program: Initial Revelations." 2023. Published by RTMA LLC. Henderson, Nevada; is a new book by James T. Lacatski; Colm Kelleher and George Knapp. It follows their 2021 book "Skinwalkers at the Pentagon." This new book is the second in a projected series of books by the three authors, about the Defense Intelligence Agency's (DIA) Advanced Aerospace Weapon System Applications Program (AAWSAP.) The book covers the time period September 2008 through May 2009. The following material from the book only covers items that are new to me, about AAWSAP. 

AAWSAP work product

"...the massive holdings of the original analysts' journals, data and photographs remain in storage."

Comment: From the previous book and other sources, we are aware that the large volume of documents generated by Bigelow Aerospace Advanced Space Studies (BAASS) the contractor, were held in two places - BAASS in Las Vegas and the DIA in Virginia. 

AAWSAP Management Plan

This was written in November 2008, showing proposed AAWSAP actions divided into "...six major projects that collectively addressed all twelve technical areas."

1. Project Database - the creation of the CAPELLA data warehouse.

2. Project Physics - the 38 Defense Intelligence Reference Documents.

3. Project Engagement - gather cases, and document areas of UAP activity and directly observe the phenomena.

4. Project Northern Tier - cases near USAF bases, containing nuclear weapons from the 1960's onwards.

5. Project Colares - gather material on the Colares, Brazil wave.

6. Project Ranch - Studies at the Skinwalker Ranch in Utah.

There was also:

Project Consciousness - examine the connection between UAP and paranormal phenomena, and human mind/body.

Project Physics 

To examine existing UAP reports to determine characteristics of UAP lift, propulsion, spatial/temporal translation and power generation.

A retrieved craft

"At the conclusion of a 2011 meeting in the capitol building with a U.S. Senator and an agency Under Secretary, Lacatski, the only one of this book's authors present, posed a question.

He stated that the United States was in possession of a craft of unknown origin and had successfully gained access to its interior. This craft had a streamlined configuration suitable for aerodynamic flight but no intakes, exhaust, wings, or control surfaces. In fact, it appeared not to have an engine, fuel tanks or fuel.

Lacatski asked" 'What is the purpose of this craft? Was it a life support craft useful only for atmospheric reentry or what? If it were a spacecraft, then how did it operate?"


1. Lacatski doesn't say any more about this "craft." He does not say whether or not he actually saw it himself. We do not know, if he didn't see it himself, then how did he acquire his knowledge of its existence. 

2. "...successfully gained access to its interior" suggests that the craft was originally closed, but then access was gained.

3. This statement by Lacatski that the US possesses "a craft of unknown origin" is the main takeaway from this book. 

United Kingdom case

There was an incident involving two F-15C aircraft near Royal Air Force base Lakenheath in the United Kingdom on 12 January 2007, which was investigated by AAWSAP. AAWSAP conducted phone communications with the former Commanding Officer of the 493rd Fighter Squadron, and a face-to-face interview with the lead pilot. Two F-15C aircraft tracked an object on their radar and there was intermittent ground radar detection. The object was seen visually by both pilots. It was between 17,000- and 18,000-feet altitude. The lead pilot thought the object was tracking with the wind at less than 60 knots. The object looked like a "meteor rock" and was watermelon to softball sized. The lead pilot in retrospect, thought it was a balloon.

Investigations team

BAASS "...hired a small team of ten high quality investigators with extensive intelligence and law enforcement investigator experience." A rapid deployment team for within the continental US. The book provides great details of cases which the team investigated during the period April and May 2009.

Comment: The Mutual UFO Network (MUFON), screened all incoming reports to them and passed on to BAASS, ones which met specific criteria. Additional investigation and documentation was then conducted by BAASS. Thus, the details of the cases published in the book include, but also add to, the case studies published in the MUFON Journals of the time. 

Northern Tier incursions

In January 2009 one analyst/investigator was assigned to review the public information available on Northern Tier incursions - around USAF nuclear sites from the 1960's into the 1990's. AAWSAP "...initiated the creation of a database compiling the names, contact info and event details of any and all eyewitnesses to the sightings of unidentified aerial phenomena on and around Air Force Bases in the United States."

CAPELLA data warehouse

Ten people each worked on the data warehouse for 40 hours a week. On 10 November 2008 BAASS awarded a contract to Jacques Vallee to prepare an outline of such a data warehouse. French, Portuguese, and Danish translators were used to provide English translations. Details are provided of each of the eleven databases which together make up the data warehouse. The cost was multi-millions of dollars in total.

Integrated sensor package

This was developed by BAASS' engineering team, from a concept plan in January 2009 to having a prototype by August 2009. The intent was to deploy it in areas of high UAP activity. The book provides detailed operational characteristics of the sensor package.

Colares, Brazil

John Schuessler was engaged to write a report based on the time frame 1972-2003, drawing on work by Bob Pratt's field visits to Brazil, which were followed by onsite visits by Janine and Jacques Vallee; together with the work of local Brazilian researchers.

Future work

The book lists projects which they did not have time to complete, including:

1. Collect and analyze uncorrelated target data from such places as NORAD.

2. Collect and analyze radar and radar/visual cases.

3. Develop a plane for locating and monitoring "windows" and "portals."

4. Develop a plan to attract novel spacecraft.


On 16 October, 2023, the three authors were interviewed on a podcast hosted by George Knapp and Jeremy Corbell. The following are my notes of the pieces of information drawn from the podcast. L = Lacatksi; K = Kelleher; G = George Knapp, and C = Jeremy Corbell.

L - did not tell the contract bidder what to do, said this is what we want to achieve write a proposal to do that.

L - AATIP name was created for a specific purpose. Why call it AATIP? The need for a different name? The funding came with a piece of highly classified paper on which someone had written 'secret' on the program name. I wanted a different name so Lue etc. came up with AATIP. Using the name AAWSAP routed the money to the Defense Warning Office. AATIP looked at military cases. I was aware of some of the cases AATIP worked on. 

L - All material from BAASS re AAWSAP sent to the DIA was scanned electronically by the DIA. Most of the documentation is propriety, it contains people's names, contractors' names etc. Therefore, we are only extracting parts of the documents in this book.

L - One interesting revelation is that there are so many different configurations of UFOs. 

L - C asked about the "craft" story in the book. L said that at the meeting there was considerably more discussion about the craft than is in the book. We will try to cover more in future.

L - This second book took 7 months to review as opposed to 14 months for Skinwalkers book.

L - There are questions we haven't been asked such as 'why the project was started?' 'Why did it end?" The meeting with that Brazilian guy - no one ever asked us why did we have that meeting? Can't answer these without documenting them and getting cleared. 

K - There were two AAWSAP threads. What effects do UFOs have on humans? The other was the nuts and bolts re lift, propulsion etc.

L - There is information out there that is not factual. We had no choice but to pursue both aspects.

C - Can you comment on David Grusch? L - I have never met Grusch. I don't know him. Congress contacted me with a similar question. I never saw what I would consider illegal activities. 

C - R the craft. Did you see the craft yourself? L - Can't answer that. 

L - [Speaking of reference to religious forces stopping the program.] I see no darkness at all here. I saw no evidence of that being true. I'm optimistic.

L - [Back to false information.] I have seen forged documents talking about the program that are not legitimate documents.

[Re the resurrection of CAPELLA.] K - UAPTF had access to the CAPELLA database. I have no personal knowledge about it re the AIMSOG or AARO. L- AARO has not reached out to me about the CAPELLA database. A person from AARO did reach out to me on an unclassified system, but not about CAPELLA.

L - There were other individuals and agencies who wanted to add their sensors to our sensor package.

K - [Asked were UAP a threat to national security.] AAWSAP generated lots of information about UFO capabilities but nothing on UFO "intent." You can't make the case without intent that UFOs are a national security threat. They are however a threat to human health. 

K - The book contains a lot of historical cases - you can't explain 1950's cases as drones. 

C - You list 8 different things for future work One is oral history of people who have first-hand experience. L - the text you read out was in the BAASS proposal and the planning document. It was a 'desire' not 'knowledge.' In the book we tried to keep it in line with the text in the AAWSAP DIA documents. The book uses extracts from those documents.

C - Do the American people deserve to know about this craft? L - Yes, within security limits. If you're asking if I am a disclosure advocate, I'd say no.

C - I know you declined to testify to Congress. Telling Congress, the lowdown, would also tell our adversaries. L - I didn't want to get involved in what would appear to be a three-ring circus. My method is to tell it in book form.

K - [UFO as both machine and something else.] K - There is a manipulation of perception in the witness. We need to look at both the physical and the psychic. 

Summary comments:

1. This new book provides details extracted from the original source BAASS AAWSAP documentation. If we are not going to be able to see copies of the full material, then extracts by Lacatski et al are the next best thing. In that respect, there is much new detail revealed here. 

2. The scant details provided about the US possessing a craft of unknown origin, and having accessed the interior, is never going to satisfy the curiosity of researchers such as myself, who have dozens of follow up questions to those asked by Knapp and Corbell, and which Lacatski refused to answer. 

3. It was excellent to be able to read the book and then listen to the podcast, even if Lacatski was reticent to respond to many of the questions put to him. He clearly stated that he was not going to exceed the detail he had been cleared to provide in the book. However, he did indicate additional detail may be forthcoming in the next book in the series, which hopefully will cover the timeframe June 2009 to December 2010. 

Update: 22 April 2024

The AARO website recently published details from the Department of Homeland Security on their proposed project named "Kona Blue" which was to extend the work of the former AAWSAP. The first Lacatski et al book "Skinwalkers at the Pentagon" appendix two, had previously provided details of this proposed second version of AAWSAP, but without giving its code name "Kona Blue."


  1. "C - Do the American people deserve to know about this craft? L - Yes, within security limits. If you're asking if I am a disclosure advocate, I'd say no." That's all you need to know right there. Lacatski is interested in expanding the frontiers of his wallet. Nothing more. Send him a message that playing games with information that the American people bought and paid for is not okay: don't buy the book.

  2. "BAASS "...hired a small team of ten high quality investigators with extensive intelligence and law enforcement investigator experience."" Was this MUFON's STAR Team Impact Project?

    On Colares: does it seem to you at all like it could have been a Brazilian military regime psyop involving drugs, kidnapping, torture, planted rumors etc. as part of an anti-guerilla/anti-dissident campaign? Vallee himself has alluded to the CIA using "alien abductions" as cover for operations in Latin America, though he has provided no corroborating documents to that effect. There's also an article out there discussing the endurance of UFO stories in Latin America and that part of it could have been about the fear of being disappeared by the authorities; I think it also alluded to the use of helicopters and the fear people had of them, which could find an analog in alien craft snatching up people. In Colares, some of the descriptions by witnesses are reminiscent of helicopters and their pilots (bug-eyed occupants sitting next to each other; bright lights shone down). One of the fears voiced by the Robertson Panel was that the Soviets might clog up American reporting channels by staging or exploiting a UFO flap in order to initiate a sneak attack on the United States. Might a similar logic have prevailed in Brazil, where the authorities were wary of communist subversion and might have done their own experiment, with Colares as Guinea pig, to gauge how easy it would be for their adversaries to sow chaos and confusion using UFOs and aliens as cover?


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