Monday, April 29, 2019

French Intelligence, Gilbert Payan, and UAP


In recent times, I have been focusing on learning more about a number of individuals who are mentioned in Jacques Vallee's "Forbidden Science: Volume Four." The astute blog reader will have noticed that I have only been writing about U.S. researchers in this series. Now, Vallee, being born in France maintained a network of French individuals, as well as those in the United States.

Source: Amazon Books
I therefore thought, it only fair to take a look at  French researcher, namely, Gilbert Payan. In fact, Vallee's interactions with Payan go back to 1986, which Vallee recorded in his previous book, "Forbidden Science: Volume Three." I take up the story of Payan from 1986.

Source: Amazon Books
After the quotes from Vallee's latest book, concerning Payan, I will add some commentary about Vallee's view on Payan's contacts with US researcher Richard Niemtzow, and French attempts to get Niemtzow to go and work in France - but on what?

(Diary entry dated) 25 April 1986

Vallee talking to Jean-Jacques Velasco.

"He told me of his recent visit to Alain Esterle, whom he describes as entirely focused on his career goals. They went to see Gilbert Payan, an industrialist from Compagnie Generale des Eaux who secretly serves as the Gray Eminence of French ufology: his factory makes the diffraction gratings for Gepan, which they hand out to the Gendarmes in hope of getting a UFO spectrum, to no avail so far (26.)

Payan is from Ecole Polytechnique, so he immediately addressed Esterle: 'which promotion are you from?' Then he turned to Velasco, asking him the same question. But Jean-Jacques didn't graduate from Polytechnique; he is a simple technician who studied to become an engineer. After that all the conversation was between Esterle and Payan."

In note 26, Vallee provides a biography of Payan, which will assist understand Payan's role in French UAP research.

"Gilbert Payan, a graduate (1948) of Ecole Polytechnique and a specialist in power lasers, pursued parallel careers in industry and on the fringes of French secret military services. After postgraduate studies in Germany (1951-52) and at Cornell University (1952-53) Payan worked as a civil engineer, joining ENSA (now Technip) in 1959, developing a petro-chemical plant in Shiraz (Iran.) From 1968 to 1971  he worked at Creusot-Loire as project leader on the Rapsodie nuclear plant, becoming head of R & D in the Mechanical department.

In 1976 he was president of the Mechanics division of the DGRST (a military research center.) From 1978 to 1981 he served as Chief Operating Officer, then CEO of Instruments SA, a company developing military optics. He became president of a franco-soviet group for scientific instrumentation in industry.

In 1982 Payan was director of the Mechanics-robotics -optical department at the Ministry of research and Technology, a position he left in 1985 to become advisor on power laser development under the Eureka program. He became CEO of Jobin & Yvon about 1986. After 1990, he continued to work as a private consultant."

My notes:

1. Alain Esterle was the head of GEPAN between 1979 and 1983 - Groupe d'Etude des Phenomenes Aerospatiaux non-identifies which ran between 1977-1987.

2. Claude Poher was the head of GEPAN  between 1977 and 1979.


3. Jean-Jacques Velasco was head of SEPRA  between 1984 and at least 1999) - Service d'Expertise des Phenomenes de Rentrees Atmospheriques. 

Source: IUR V25 n4. 

13 June 1989

Talking about visiting Velasco.

"We went  over to Neron Data in the afternoon to fix some bugs in the Ovnibase expert system, and Jean-Jacques gave me a copy of the Gepan database. He confirmed that some of the French teams interested in microwave weapons wanted to talk to Niemtzow, notably the shadowy Gilbert Payan who works with ETCA (Etablishment Technique Central de l'Armement.)"

18 June 1989

Vallee talking to Richard Niemtzow.

Niemtzow: "Veyret tells me I should meet with Gilbert Payan, have you heard that name before?'

Vallee: "Jean-Jacques did mention him, behind the scenes guy, especially interested in microwaves." I didn't tell him that Jean_Jacques had told me, in the plane, going to Boulder, that Payan was working closely with the military at ETCA, like our friend Francois Louange...'Payan aime le secret' were Velasco's exact words..."

" 'Payan is a consultant with the Defense Nationale' Niemtzow went on. 'Apparently he's highly respected. They say he can get me a position in France...' According to Richard, Payan is in contact with a Monsieur Cannon, or Cannone, supposedly with French Intelligence at the Embassy in Switzerland who traveled to the U.S. to see Niemtzow on a mission hurriedly arranged by the Quai d'Orsay last year."

My notes:

1. "Veyret" is Dr Bernard Veyret, of the University of Bordeauz. Vallee writes,that Veyret studies the bioeffects of microwaves, non-ionizing radiation and plant biology. Veyret's name crops up first in "Forbidden Science: Volume Three" page 399. Vallee speaks to Richard Niemtzow:

 Niemtzow: "I've just had another call from Dr Bernard Veyret, who is doing research on electromagnetism at the University of Bordeaux. He's the one who is trying to validate the Priore machine and the use of microwaves in cancer treatment...well, this Veyret is open-minded about UFOs, but I don't think that's his real interest. He mentioned it might be possible for me to work half time at  Sepra in Toulouse and half time in Bordeaux...Veyret tells me I should meet with Gilbert Payan..."

2. Quai d'Orsay refers to the French Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

30 July 1989

Vallee talking to Niemtzow, who had just returned from a trip to France to visit 'people within the hierarchy representing the French government's interest in the UFO question.'

"He went on to Paris where he met Gilbert Payan and Jean-Jacques Velasco. Payan invited them to lunch at his apartment so there were no witnesses to their discussions of UFOs and physiological effects of microwaves. Although Payan represented himself as a high ranking official of the Ministry of research, Richard suspected he was a specialist in scientific intelligence using the research ministry as a cover. He kept Richard and Jacqueline most of the afternoon, asking many questions but providing few answers himself. He was evasive when asked about the future of the French program at CNES.

During the lunch, which was formal, with Payan keeping his jacket and tie in spite of the sweltering heat (I joked that he could not take them off because his tape recorder was inside his breast pocket, his tie hiding the wire) Payan mentioned that France was making progress on ionic propulsion systems. He had also been associated with Poher's project to camouflage automated UFO detection devices into atmospheric monitoring station, an effort that went nowhere.

Payan asked Richard numerous questions about microwaves: would they interfere with recording equipment? No, replied Richard with the impression Payan already had the answers. The apartment held an excellent UFO library. Payan knew my work and had read all of Niemtzow's papers. He clearly occupied a position of clout in the administration, from which he plans to retire in a few months, but Richard had the impression he did not know much more than we did on UFOs, while he was very up-to-date about the aerospace industry both French and American. Space travel seemed to be his dominant interest, along with sophisticated weapons: his interest in UFOs is linked to the desire to manufacture a "ray" that could paralyze people at a distance like these objects do. Dr Cannone, of French intelligence, was again mentioned as his "collaborator." And Payan considered the idea of hiring Richard as a consultant on these issues.

Whenever they discussed UFOs it was the medical aspect that came back. Would certain types of radiation be useful in paralyzing muscles? What was the effect of microwaves on tissue? At what frequencies? Those were the topics he wanted to discuss. They correlated closely with those asked by Dr Bernard Veyret of Bordeaux University Medical School, himself an expert on radiation impact on human tissue who recently visited Richard in Texas.

This brought up an interesting point about Velasco that did not escape Richard's attention. At one time Velasco said that he had only spoken to Payan once or twice, and that he did not know of Veyret's visit to Texas until it happened. Yet during lunch he mentioned earlier conversations with Payan about Veyret's imminent visit. Richard felt sure that Velasco and Payan had in fact spoken of it frequently.

Another incident threw their relationship into a different light, when Payan casually mentioned that both CIA and KGB had gone through Gepan files in Toulouse. Velasco's mouth opened in shock: 'What do you mean?' he managed to say. His question was answered by another question: 'What did you expect them to do' asked Payan..."

23 August 1998

Visiting with Richard Niemtzow.

"Richard showed me the latest letter from Gilbert Payan (from Boulogne) inviting him to France. It suggested that he contact a woman named Annie Wolff who seems to be his assistant. As he had told me before, it hinted that they could help him secure a job at Hoffman-LaRoche while he would be supplementing his income working for 'them' as a consultant. But who is 'them?'

Another document Richard gave me answered the question: it was an excellent summary of biological effects of weak microwaves written by three scientists from Bordeaux University on behalf of the SGDN, the General Secretariat for National Defense.

'Clearly the French are moving towards he development of what they call MOPAP weapons. Anti-personnel Pulsed Microwaves,' he said. 'Do you think I should go there and join their project? See where it leads? My wife is French, we could easily move back, Payan has hinted I could work with Velasco in Toulouse. I could become active in their UFO work...I have good contacts with amateur groups in France...'

The notes from Payan indicate that the Pentagon review, Soviet Military Power repeatedly stressed that the Soviets had studied MOPAP weapons and were in a position to manufacture them. An ETCA mission to the U.S. (arranged in part by Niemtzow in July 1987) brought back data on American progress in this area. Payan quotes articles from IEEE Spectrum and Heracles International that indicate that microwave beams can paralyze or injure fighting troops by acting on the nervous system...Payan is no dummy. He must know quite well that Niemtzow has to report on such contacts..."

19 October 1989

"Velasco has seen Payan again: 'The more I know this man, the stranger he seems,' Jean-Jacques said."

27 October 1989

Vallee is in Paris. "I am eating a snack before my appointment with Payan at the Armament's technical center."

28 October 1989

Discussing the Voronezh case.

"When I mentioned that the object may have sported the Ummo symbol on its side, Velasco and Payan said this confirmed their suspicions about KGB influence over the saga of the friendly we talked about Trans-en-Provence. I gave them the results of our micro-analysis of the soil samples, which proves that Nicolai told the truth and the traces were truly unexplained. We talked about Niemtzow and Poher. Payan clearly has some latitude in military research and is close to the French secret service..."

Forbidden Science: Volume Four

29 June 1990

"This morning I met with Gilbert Payan for breakfast at Le Depart on place Saint Michel. He was still fuming about a new book by physicist Jean-Pierre Petit. Payan thinks that Ummo is a brainchild of the KGB, designed to steal advanced ideas in science. Like Martine, he suspects a connection to LaRouche's Fusion group, one of the KGB's operations in the West...He seemed astonished when I told him that MHD (magneto-hydrodynamics) was known in the US, long before Petit's research."

12 June 1993

Phone conversation between Vallee and Kit Green, about crop circles being formed by the use of infrared and microwaves.  "So at least we agree on that: he's come around to the conclusion Velasco and Payan reached a year ago, based on their own lab work."

17 May 1994

"An executive from a French company came over for lunch today, bringing Gilbert Payan, so we ended up talking about microwave weapons and Russian energy research. Payan is close to Monory, a powerful French politician, President of the Senate. He promised to send me a paper about the new weapons, which he said the US had been trying to convince the french to develop for the last eight years.

'Microwave weapons are of two kinds,' he said, 'those that act against electronics, either frying circuits or confusing them, and those that act against personnel, especially at the alpha frequency. An entire region can be exposed, with the inhabitants rendered confused or sick. The exact effects are debated but not denied.So that's how the joint project developed, about the crop circles.'

Payan told me that Poher had become marginalized. 'It's tough to fight, all alone, for so long. He's disgusted with the scientific community. He's become stuck in dubious theories.'

Intrigued by my references to microwave weapons in Confrontations, he asked if I'd gotten the information from Niemtzow who he said was an expert in the field. So that's why Gepan was so eager to work with him; ufology was just an excuse."

25 May 1994

Vallee and his wife dined with Alain Boudier. "Boudier said that Payan suggested that the CNES should demand from Les Americains a piece of the material from Roswell. A French general named Pouliquen, attached to the embassy in Washington, has a mission to establish liaison with the Pentagon about this. Boudier suggested I contact him in Washington to see if I could help."

4 September 1994

"Over dinner at his home last night Gilbert Payan told us the full story of the PK tests done by Crussard and Jean-Pierre Girard. I asked him about the Gateau sample, which he remembered well, 'We did analyze it,' he said. 'It turned out to be a combination of metals, the result of an odd series of heatings and coolings. But what good is a case like that? No piece of the actual propulsion system is available."

"Payan argues that an Alien race may live in the asteroid belt, from which smaller ships come, using antimatter propulsion. 'That may not explain everything, but in France you have to present a believable theory, before academics will deign to look at the data,' he said astutely as he drove us back to the Latin Quarter after midnight. He thinks that the Council on Foreign Relations is behind a plot to create a one-world government along with the Trilateral Commission.: the 'far right connection again?'"

1 November 1994

"Payan, who has no concept of a scientist who can be a free spirit, told me the other day, 'You'll never have the same high position in France, given your open interest in the paranormal.'"

6 November 1994

"Sipping tomato juice at Deux Magots Gilbert Payan, 'the man in the shadows,' told me that he thought the dwarfish beings at Roswell were artificial biological specimens and that the "craft" had been dropped from a real UFO to deliver a Fourth of July warning to the United States, at their first atom bomb site: an idea worth pondering.

I reminded him that I had entered the field because of Aime Michel and Guerin, and late Hynek, but I certainly wouldn't enter it now, repelled as I am by the blatant hoaxes and the pseudo-religious squabbles that stain the field.

I showed Payan the Melvin Laird correspondence with Les Aspin, which amazed him. he would have given anything, he said, to keep a copy.

He told me that upon her arrival in France Mary Galbraith had gone straight to the CNES where she was received courteously but learned nothing, naturally."

25 November 1995

"French Defense consultant Gilbert Payan, with whom I had lunch at Punjab yesterday, continues to believe that an Alien spaceship crashed in Roswell. He is only interested in classical physical models. Anything that doesn't fit he ascribes to 'magical tricks.'"

26 November 1995

Pierre Lagrange: "...told us that Payan had inspired most of Velasco's latest book, which hypothesizes that UFOs were antimatter spacecraft flying from a base within the asteroid belt, a bizarre idea with no bases."

24 April 1996

"Industrialist Gilbert Payan just explained to me with some humour why the French General Staff dislike non-lethal weapons. 'You can't walk proudly down the Champ-Elysees brandishing a pot of glue,' he observed wryly. 'Besides, the Americans aren't sharing their microwave secrets with us, and they also keep secret the use of magneto-hydrodynamics in their missiles.' He blames Jean-Pierre Petit for the disrepute into which MHD research has fallen in France."

27 April 1996

"It is sad that the French - even the best informed intellectuals like Payan or Therese - know nothing about scangate, still classified. Yet they pretend to be fully informed about what goes on in America."

29 June 1997

"Defense consultant Gilbert Payan believes the Roswell crash was a setup on the part of extraterrestrials who influence our destiny. He did provide valuable background on Bernard Veyret and Francois Louange, whom I plan to invite to a new workshop planned by Peter Sturrock under Laurance Rockefeller's sponsorship..."

My commentary:

Firstly, I will extract some quotes from Vallee's book:

1. Jean-Jacques Velasco "confirmed that some of the French teams interested in microwave weapons wanted to talk to Niemtzow, notably the shadowy Gilbert Payan who works with ETCA (Etablishment Technique Central de l'Armement.)" (13 June 1989.)

2. Payan tells Niemtzow that he can get Niemtzow a job in France (18 June 1989.)

3. A French Intelligence officer went to see Niemtzow in the USA. (18 June 1989.)

4. "Richard suspected he was a specialist in scientific intelligence..." (30 July 1989.)

5. Re Payan: "...his interest in UFOs is linked to the desire to manufacture a "ray" that could paralyze people at a distance like these objects do. Dr Cannone, of French intelligence, was again mentioned as his "collaborator." And Payan considered the idea of hiring Richard as a consultant on these issues." (30 July 1989.)

6. Re Payan: "Intrigued by my references to microwave weapons in Confrontations, he asked if I'd gotten the information from Niemtzow who he said was an expert in the field. So that's why Gepan was so eager to work with him; ufology was just an excuse."

In short, by 1994, Vallee had concluded that the French were interested in working with US citizen Richard Niemtzow, not because of any mutual interest in UAP, but because of Niemtzow's speciality in the area of the effects of microwaves, which apparently the French were looking to develop as a weapon.

To my knowledge, Niemtzow never did go to work in France on this area of microwaves.

1 comment:

  1. To get more info about MHD and Jean Pierre Petit(of course choose subtitle then click on parameters then change langage to English):
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